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Innosol
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Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Oct 4th, 2005 at 9:50pm
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In looking around the dark recesses of my parents basement I came upon a 1885 Low Wall ( sn 43240) with most of the internals missing ( everything from the knockoff forward).  Having harbored a latent desire for a SS classic for some time this seemed like some form of opportunity.  I haven't given up trying to locate more parts (dad never threw anything away) but the number of boxes of small metal parts that a parent with a depression mentality has accumulated in 70 years makes me think that it will be faster to either buy or make the requisite parts.  Which brings me to some newbie questions-

Are the parts for the the High and Low wall 1885 interchangeable?  Several offerings on Ebay do not specify which version they are for.

What are the best sources for these parts Ebay, user groups, gunshows, dealers, etc.

If I have to make the parts are there any sources of drawings that are good enough to lift or have dimensions?

Obviously I am standing on a podium of ingnorance so any help will be appreciated.
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Reply #1 - Oct 4th, 2005 at 10:47pm
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First off, welcome to the board!  Secondly, congratulations on your find, these are indeed classic.

Now, I'll try to answer some of your questions:

1.  Yes, and No.  While most internal parts will fit and work, there are differences, for example in the shape of the breechblock, and the lower tang thickness.  Also there are two types of mainspring...the early flat spring and the late coil spring.  The hammers and breechblocks for these may or may not interchange, again it depends.

2.  All the above are possible sources.  eBay parts usually wind up being pretty spendy, in my opinion.  It might be more cost effective (and certainly quicker) to buy newly made parts from Ballard Rifle Company.

3.  Buffalo Arms Company sells a set of blueprints for this action, which are supposed to be fully dimensioned.

Lastly, I'd recommend some reference reading:  First, get a copy of Frank DeHaas' "Single Shot Rifles and Actions", a bedside reader no single shot enthusiast should be without.  Then, Campbell's two volumes on the Winchester 1885 Single Shot are probably THE single best references on this rifle type in existence...

Greg
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Reply #2 - Oct 5th, 2005 at 1:19am
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Amen to everything the esteemed Mr. Shirt said.  I would add that most gun shops have or can easily get a copy of the NRA's disassembly guide for rifles, and that there is a very good breakdown of the last iteration of the low-wall (third model Winder musket) in that as I recall.  You might use that as a starting point even though your sn suggests that your low-wall is the earlier flatspring version.  From what you write, I am trying to visualize what is actually gone...it would appear that you are lacking the breech block itself with its included firing pin, the extractor, the trigger, hammer, and some assorted pins and screws.  Is the mainspring still in place under the barrel, or for that matter, is the barrel still there?  How about the lever and its link and cross pin?  Folks that mess with them would recognize those parts pretty readily amongst the other flotsam and jetsam, but perhaps it be easier for you to use the pictures from one of the sources mentioned to form a "search image" in your mind.  HTH, and don't hesitate to come back for more advice.  If nothing else, the price is right!  8)  BTW, where are you located?  Maybe one or more of us are close enough to give you a hand.

Froggie
  
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Innosol
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Re: Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Reply #3 - Oct 5th, 2005 at 6:49am
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Gentlemen, 

Many thanks for the advice.  It seem that my major issue is ignorance and I will begin to do some more research to see if I can sort this all out.

As to the condition of the action - it has a barrel, but I am sure it is not the original.  I believe that someone was attempting to make a .22LR SS out of the action when it was disassembled and rebarreled.  At any rate the mounting for the leaf spring is missing along with the spring itself.   

As near as I can figure out the main components I will be looking for, in addition to the spring, will be the hammer, breechblock, firing pin, extractor, and lever.  The trigger group including the knockoff seem to be intact and operational.   

So far beyond some pictures of sample rifles - I have acquired an exploded diagram of a Highwall which I am assuming is not much different from the Low Wall.  With your feedback I will begin looking for the other references.   

If I get this project off the ground will most likely have it barreled for a centerfire such as 25-20 or 25-35.  Does any one have a better recommendation for a cartridge that could be used with cast bullets?   

I appreciate the help and advice and by the way I am located in Southern NH near Nashua.

Regards.
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Reply #4 - Oct 5th, 2005 at 1:38pm
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In all likelihood, you will find/have all or none of the action parts...the missing parts come out when you remove the mainspring, then the little screw in that small hole at the bottom of the action to retain the lever axis pin and said pin, then everything else you list falls out in a group.  You might look in the top of the tang and see whether the sear on its pin and the sear spring on its screw are still present.   Smiley 

If the action was originally a .22 rf, it should have a square slot and a screw hole in the front face of the receiver (where it is covered by the fore end wood) to mount the so-called kicking extractor.  If not, the rifle may have been a centerfire originally.  No biggie, but the block and extractor you need will be determined by the final application.  I like the .25-20 (either SS or WCF) for the low-wall, in fact I'm building a low-wall with a Green Mtn. bbl right now in .25-20 SS.  The .25-35 however is probably a bit overly ambitious for that action.  Shocked 

The good news is that your area was and is a bit of a hot bed of single shots and schuetzen, so finding someone fairly nearby shouldn't be too great a struggle.  If you can't find sufficient pictures and instructions right away, drop me a PM and I'll be happy to Xerox some and send them to you.  Likewise, the parts mentioned change hands frequently (at least compared to most other SS parts) and shouldn't be TOO hard to find.  Down here in Central VA I've had to find each of the things you mention more than once for projects I have done.   Roll Eyes

Continued best of luck, and keep us informed...we all seem to get a certain vicarious thrill out of each other's projects and successes.   Grin

Regards,
the Green Frog

PS  With regards to your stock, the high-wall stock can be fitted to a low-wall by removing excess wood.  The reverse is not practical in most cases.  Is either piece of the original stock present and usable?
  
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Innosol
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Re: Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Reply #5 - Oct 6th, 2005 at 9:03am
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Thanks for the additional info

I have been using the following exploded view as my "road map" for the required parts.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

It shows, I believe, a high wall breakdown but the title suggests it is generic to the 1885.  Comparing it to what I have this seems reasonable.  I do have the sear sear pin and everything aft of this to the trigger and it all seems to work.

As you suggested looking at the front of the receiver there is a small threaded hole in the upper right and a square notch cut in the side of the larger square whole where the leaf spring enters the receiver.  I assume this indicates the gun was originally a rim fire.

As to the wood, I have the butt stock including the buttplate which is a steel rifle type.  The wood appears to be of a utility nature and in reasonably good shape considering the age (minor chips and dings) and usable.  The fore end is missing.  I have been hauling around a black walnut plank harvested from the Charlottesville VA property I once owned and this seems like a good project to apply it to.

Is there a correct way to cleanup the metal parts?   

The action has an overall dark gray in appearance and there appears to be some light surface rust internally.  The outside shows some minor rust pits.  Actually for something produced in 1889 it is not too bad.

  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Reply #6 - Oct 6th, 2005 at 12:04pm
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Bob,   

     Your parts diagram is perfectly fine for what you are using it for.  These are the differences FWIW;

1) It lacks the screw and spring for the rimfire "kicker" as previously mentioned .

2) The shape of the sidewalls and breechblock are different... the side walls are lower (hence the name -  Grin ) and the top of the breechblock is scalloped on all but the first year production (if this latter is true for yours, the frame should have the flares at front and rear.)

3) Only the .22 rf has a different extractor...it functions pretty much just like the one shown, but instead of coming up to the side of the chamber it only goes up to the bottom and then extends all the way across.  If you change to a centerfire this point becomes moot but if you stay with a .22 rimfire, that will have to be dealt with.

BTW, while scratching through my parts I found a mainspring base (only) and a couple of extractors including a .22 rimfire that I might be willing to part with if they will help and you don't find your originals...

All for now, good hunting!
Froggie
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Reply #7 - Oct 6th, 2005 at 11:08pm
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My .02c here.......

I've owned several dozen walls of various persuasions, most of them being low walls including several in the 4-digit range with flared sides. All, repeat all, of my low walls have had the tapped hole and the cut for the rimfire ejector spring. IMO based upon my rifles' serial numbers, Winchester changed from the flare-side low wall frame to the flat-side frame somewhere between serial 14xxx (my latest flare-side other than Winders) and serial 19xxx (my earliest flat-side). All my early flare-side frames have had the semi-square-back breechblock while all my flat-side frames have had the scalloped-back block. The later low wall Winder muskets, also flare-side but coil spring, have a unique scalloped-back block that's longer top-to-bottom to match the thicker lower tang, as do the early semi-square-back blocks.

Kinda confusing sometimes.

But IMO all low walls were cut for the RF ejector spring, regardless of whether they were originally made as RF or CF. JMO, based upon owning some 2-3 dozen over the years.
HTH, good luck, Joe
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Reply #8 - Oct 7th, 2005 at 10:54am
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JDS, I stand corrected!   Embarrassed   I was thinking in terms of the high-walls that only have the kicker spring for those "intended" for .22 rf, and didn't even think about the low-walls that I have seen in cf or >.22 rf calibers...there really have been precious few of those compared to your experience.  You know that I really prefer my walls high anyway!   Roll Eyes  Besides, the way frames were made up and then assembled into guns on order, A) anything was possible, and B) it would be more expedient to standardize on that process with all frames.

Remember when FITZ and I were having that thread about the thick side take-down high-walls with the kicker spring cut also.  I wonder if all of them were intended to be further cut down and made into rim fire or whether that had just become a standard step on ALL frames by the time they were forged?

All for now, I've gotta slog through the rain to Winchester for the N-SSA doin's this weekend.  Keep your powder dry.   Grin

Froggie

PS to JDS  Did you ever make up a .17 rf on an original low-wall?  It seems we were talking about that a while back, but I don't remember the final verdict.  I don't know why, but .17s seem to be popping up a lot lately.   Wink
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Low Wall Reconstruction (Ressurection)
Reply #9 - Oct 7th, 2005 at 10:06pm
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Hi Froggie,
Yep, I did put a Brownell's 17 liner into an old junk 32RF low wall bbl, and it now resides on my test mule low wall frame, chambered in 17 HMR. It's more accurate than any of my 22 LR walls & should make a dandy little varminter. I need to order several more liners & will probably try the 17 Mach 2 shortly (got another junk 32RF low wall bbl, dontcha see).

I converted the extractor to the single side arm configuration like the CFs, I wonder if that contributed to the good accuracy? So many questions, so little time...........
Hope you have fun on your little excursion, Joe
  
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