I found the previous thread started by "Old_Dog" to be VERY interesting. Most of the posters are people of great experience and gave excellent advice.

One thing that I guess I disagreed with was somehow the idea that a deer rifle NEEDS to be a tack driver. That has NOT been my experience by any means.

Now, here I must back up and fess up to the fact that all of my deer hunting has been in woods hunting and all my deer have been taken with a handgun. That does NOT disaquaify me, however, as I spent many years chasing varmints with a .222, .223 and a .22-250. I have also hunted small game with both .22 rimfire and .25 WCF. I believe that I have a little bit of an idea what it takes to make solid hits on a deer size animal at long range (piece of cake compared to prairie dogs at 300 yards, for instance).

Fellows, you have a target the size of a volley ball. Anywhere in the volley ball (three dimensional) and you have your deer. If you are a rifleman and use an adequate cartridge with a properly sighted in rifle a reliable 2" hundred yard group will fill a pickup with deer! 

Let me explain:
A 2" rifle will shoot a group at 350 yards of 7". That means, if the rifle is sighted in correctly, that you will hit within 3.5" of your point of aim. With a volley ball to hit it is a piece of cake.

By far your biggest problem will be with the shooter. The shooter must be a rifleman! Otherwise, keep your shots under 200 yards. Shooting any animal "around the edges" is immoral.
If you are not practiced at shooting at 350 yards, judging the wind and range, no amount of accuracy in a rifle will save you. You MUST practice shooting at long distance from field positions on a regular basis. This means LOTS of range time. At long range, you must have the EXACT range. It is extremely easy to misjudge the range at distance. The "new" rangefinders are VERY helpful in this regard. However, "conditions" have a LOT to do with point of impact and there is no substitute for LOTS of "behind the rifle".

I recommend that you buy a factory Browning falling block (my choice) in an adequate caliber (at least .25 caliber and at least 3000 feet per second with a bullet of adequate weight and proper construction for deer size game) or a Ruger single shot. Tune the rifles until they are a RELIABLE performer (RELIABLE means that the point of impact will not vary from day to day and season to season - VERY important). Then shoot it on the range from field positions a LOT! That is the way I would solve the problem.

If you back up the range to 300 yards (my recommendation) then anything in the 308 class would suffice with a good rifleman behind the butt.

Now, if you just want a fine, super accurate rifle, for whatever reason, then just disregard the above.

YMMV

Dale53

Dale, I agree with you that in most cases a rifle for whitetail deer doesn't need to be a tack driver. The exceptions IMO would lie in the areas of long range, limited recovery area, and eliminating deer in populated areas to avoid trauma to the citizens & property.

I also agree that the fatal area is fairly large & round. In my case with the local deer I try to imagine a softball or cantaloupe, centered between the front shoulders (front? where are the rear shoulders? VBG) and halfway up the deer's body bottom-to-top. Since 1969, when I made my last 'heart shot' and the heart-shot deer ran 100 yds with a hole in its heart, I have not had any deer move over two steps and I firmly believe it's the result of shooting for the 'softball'.

Now don't get me wrong, I personally haven't killed over maybe 50-60 deer in my life including a few mulies in CO in my school days, so my personal sample is still kinda small. But back in the '60s I was peripherally involved in a deer-control effort in The Delta of MS, when many hundred whitetails had to be culled because of the wasting disease these animals are subject to. As an aside, our state had long had a prohibition against shooting does and this was the cause of the disease, too many does. Shortly after this control effort, we started shooting does during the regular seasons and now we're overrun with whitetails, literally overrun.

Anyway, the state Game & Fish guys, known as Possum Cops down here, enlisted the aid of a few varmint shooters in their efforts to cull the herd, and I got a chance for a little action during the process.

To make a long story short, we found that our 22-24 cal rifles were too small for 100% reliable stops, at any range, if the deer was not hit in the head or spine. We also found that even small mistakes in range or wind estimation could cause a non-arresting hit at the longer ranges.

The range and wind are little things and are of little account at the closer ranges, but as the range goes beyond about 250 yds, we enter a new world. The formerly little things have now become suddenly bigger.

When we have to guesstimate the range and the wind, how many of us can do it well enough to guarantee a hit? And how many of us can guarantee to have time to use our magic laser rangefinder, even if we have one? Try to imagine hitting a chuck at 350 yds (the original stipulated range), every single time, with as little delay as possible before he moves? Can any one of us truly say that we've never missed a chuck-sized target at 350 yds?

When I add the miss factors of uncertain range and wind, the possible error circle becomes somewhat larger than before, perhaps as much as half-again larger.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that, basically, all the accuracy I can get is still not enough to suit me when it comes to the longer ranges beyond 250-300 yds. My personal upper limit for a big-game rifle is 1 MOA for five shots, unless using iron sights (under 200 yds ONLY) when it's 2 MOA. With this criteria, I feel very confident in immediately stopping any whitetail at up to 350 yds, when shooting for the 'softball'. I personally feel confident of killing any whitetail at up to 500 yds but can't guarantee an instant stop.

Please be advised that I shoot on a local private 500-yd range with target frames & gongs at each 100-yd interval, & so have plenty of practice at the longer ranges. Also I use a 270 WCF which is zeroed dead-on at 300 yds. Both factors work together to make a long shot a lot easier.
More later, ttfn, Joe

Dale, I envy your success with the 44 Mag. I've been trying since 1965 to kill a deer with one of my 44s but no luck at all. Have killed 4 with various 22LR pistols, mostly as targets of opportunity while doing other things, but it seems like every time I go out with only my 44, I never see anything closer than 100 yds. Unless he's going about 90 mph the other way, of course, VBG.

We in my part of the country are very fortunate to have plenty of deer. IMO it's the result of an enlightened state Game & Fish org that realizes the benefit of controlling the game populations. Many areas of the state are under the so-called "8-Point or Better" rule and we now have a legal minimum spread limit for legal bucks. We are not allowed to shoot spikes or 4-points at all, at all.

And we shoot a lot of does. A LOT of does. Most of our hunting land is owned by timber companies who mandate that a certain number of does be killed each year, and if the leaseholders don't kill that number then they don't get the hunting lease the following year. The leaseholders are required to send in all lower jawbones of all deer killed in order that the state boys can analyze the game populations, and this also ensures that the required numbers are killed.

When I was a kid, we never saw any really good bucks in the woods. I used to see herds of 20-30 does all in a bunch, but I hunted in MS until my early 20s before seeing a really shootable buck. It was all because of the old-timers' rule about never shooting a doe, we ended up with all does and no bucks. As a result, the does all concentrated around the few bucks and they all got the wasting disease from the population density. The few bucks were so debilitated from servicing all the does that they weren't alert enough to avoid the hunters and their condition was so poor that the racks were very small.

That was back in the '60s, now we have so many healthy deer that this year we can use breechloaders during muzzle-loader season. Yes, the new rule states that a 40-cal or larger breechloader with an exposed hammer can be used legally during the M/L season. Scopes too. Heaven for a single shot shooter!

My only problem is that my wall 45-90 weighs about 12 lbs, it's just too heavy for good stalking.
Regards, Joe

now, now, blood,

i don't want to blow my own horn, but, if i don't no one else will. had i been there, the targets would have been cleaned and from an off hand position at that.

missing at 275yds, harump  and harump. don't know what these young people are comming to..

..ttfn..grampa..

Foster, your results don't surprise me a bit. At one time I worked around a gun shop, and got (read HAD) to listen to all the stories about how the customer had shot his elk at 700-800 yards and his rifle (frequently a WeatherSby (sic) was so flat-shooting that he didn't even hafta aim high.

R-I-G-H-T-!

Someone famous once said something like "You'll never go broke betting on human stupidity!" and a brag like that elk one is a perfect illustration of the truth of that statement.

I sure do like your match idea, I'm gonna keep it in mind for the next time. Nothing like a little controversy to liven thngs up, and I just love to burst a self-important bubble or three!
I'm SO bad............regards, Joe

Well to quote an ol RIFLEMAN "Only Accurate Rifles Are Interesting" Accuracy is what you are willing to accept with your equipment. Dale, there is nothing like hitting a pair of "dogs' with one shot each at a measured 619 yds. Close is fun but as an "accomplished Rifleman"    one would think that you would be more like Elmer Keith!!! Besides, the only thing I have seen you shoot, other than a .22 RF is your camera,     8)  and a FINE job you do with that!  Have FUN while you can!!   4227