Coolhand, as the late Duchess of Windsor put it "you can never be too rich, too young, or too thin". 

I think it's time to start talking about that "hot" topic of around 1989, the use of shooting jackets in our sport. I understand that several shooters at Etta Green are using them. The WSU has two classes, traditional and modern, the latter permits jackets, gloves, boots, whatever. I would think that the designation "J" should appear afters scores shoot with a jacket. Hey, I might be trying a jacket myself and promise to notify all in that event.

Dick

coolhd,

  I certainly agree with your assessment of the Hudson Match.

  Just a coupla corrections. The Election Day Match that Hudson set his record was held on Oct. 1st, 1903. I've never read any account of what the weather was like but more than likely they shot out of a shooting house so would be protected from the wind/weather.

  On the use of scopes then...... Altho Hudson did shoot his record with iron sights, scopes were allowed in that match. Several shooters showed up with them, including Pope, and after much arguing a vote was taken and they were allowed. There was quite a bit of hard feelings about this vote, so much so that the expected match winner, along with a few others, left without firing a shot.

PETE

coolhd,

  Again, I agree with you.

  For myself I find it takes about two weeks of shooting almost every day with iron sights to get the "hang" of them again every Spring. Scopes of course have there own problems but, for me seem to be easier to get up to speed with.

  Never having shot out of a shooting house I can't give an opinion on if it would be easier than shooting in the open or not. Like you I like to feel the air move around me as I feel that air movement closest to you has the greatest effect on the bullets flight. But I'll bet, like me, you've shot in conditions when you wished you had some protection from the wind. 

  As I mentioned in my last message scopes were still a controversial issue in 1903, but from what I read they had been in match use for a few years prior. Always with a lot of pro and con. Sometimes they were allowed, sometimes not. The problem as seen by it's detractors was that it gave an unfair advantage. The supporters felt that, like today, a scope allowed the older shooters to keep on shooting after their eyesight started to fail.

  You might have trouble finding the source I used for the Hudson match. It was completely covered in the Nov. 12, 1903 issue of Shooting & Fishing. A very complete writeup with every shot fired by every competitor. There must have been quite a bit of interest in the gun and load Hudson used as a picture and description are in the Nov. 26 issue. If I recall right I posted the latter here a while back.

  If you, or anyone else that's interested, can't obtain the article I can type it in as a message on here. It's kind of long, but very interesting. I can also enter in the individual shooters, where from, guns, loads, and total score, but think I'll pass on entering each individual shot. Probably gonna take two or three messages as it is!

  One of the things that intriqued me, until I just re-read the article, was why was it called the Election Day match when it was shot in Oct. Apparently, from it's enception ten years previous to 1903, the match was held on Nov. 3rd at Armbruster's Greenville shooting Park in Jersey City. Due to a misunderstanding in 1902 the match was taken over by the Zettler Rifle Club in 1903.

PETE

Dick

Here is my 2 cents worth on the points.

Shooting houses. They are a definite advantage offhand. The wind blows your body around and has more effect on your hold than it does to your bullet. The house is worth right many points on some days. 

Shooting coats. They are no advantage. I know Highpower shooters use them but  Highpower shooters often are slaves to fashion. You do need a coat for prone and I think they just leave them on without considering the effect. Offhand it's better to be able to steer the rifle and not inhibited by the coat.

Tubb says in his book they are not helpfull for good scores Offhand. He prefers the hip rest bone supported positon we use in Schuetzen. UIT rules don't allow a strapped in coat, 10 Meter Airgun shooters can't use them either. The coat they wear helps with it's sticky surfaces but we have hook butt plates that do the same thing.  By the rules no Silouette shooters use them and NRA rules Silouette has some of the best offhand shooters that exist today. 

Scopes, The advantage depends on your individual eyes but look at the ISSA Scope vs Iron scores just posted. about a 2 percent disavantage to Irons. Thats 50 points in the Hudson match for a top level shooter.

In the end the individual match rules don't make a whole lot of difference as long as you are shooting under the same ones as the rest of the competitors. It's a good idea to be somwhat flexable and able to adapt to local or match rules, You will always find some local quick to adapt to.

Boats

Jackets. Some years back I had the chance to try a variety of jackets at the 200 yard range. I did not shoot but dry-fired at the ASSRA target with my scoped Miller. I was shocked by the stability given by the use of the NRA approved jackets, appx. 8mm thickness. They tightened around your fanny and hips, it felt like I was enclosed in a steel pipe. The reduction in wobble was remarkable. Gary Anderson was on the scene and he commented that aside from offering protection while shooting prone, that the majority of highpower shooters would simply quit because they would become frustrated when shooting offhand. David Tubbs talks about shooting from the hip rest but what about those who because of arm-hip configuration can't acheive that position? Jim Luke and Jim Feren are among those shots, great shots, who can shoot with elbow on hip. Note that Tubbs in spite of touting the line that "jackets don't help offhand" always wore one where permitted!

Dick

Boats,

  I feel you're right about the bone supported hold. My problem, and by others I suspect, is that my elbow isn't long enuf to be supported by my hip.

  Bone support must not be the norm for most people as when mentioning holds the different famous old time Schuetzen shooters used, it is always mentioned when a particular shooter was able to use it.

  In regard to gun support one of the reasons for the "Perch Belly" stock was so the shooter could rest the stock on the protusion of their stomach. Being famous for their beer drinking this was a fairly common feature of most of them. We tend to forget that offhand shooting of old was done in quite a different manner than we do it today, being a more "across the body" style with the shooter facing at a more 90 degree angle to the target.

PETE

Boats,

  I understand your thoughts on modern gun hip rest shooting and stocks adjustable to the point that you can do almost anything with them, and agree with them. But......

   I'm mostly a traditonal Schuetzen shooter, both in gun design and caliber, so this doesn't leave a lot of room for adjusting things.

  I do have two gun designed for offhand work..... A German rilfe and the Schoyen-Ballard. But neither really allow me to assume a hip rest. As mentioned they were designed for a different method of holding the gun than we use today. Many, many years ago I could bend my body over enuf that I could put my elbow on my hip bone, but even then it was very uncomfortable. Wouldn't even try and attempt it today. Might not be able to straighten up.  I assume many in the old days had the same problem as they got older and it's why guns were designed then to take that into account.

  You're right about modern across the course shooters. If I recall right you win those type matches by being a better offhand shot. Seems I've read about the same thing for BP Shilouette shooting to.

  As for coats..... As I mentioned I tried them one Winter in our indoor .22 league and did find they added point to your score. I only used the coat but can imagine with a full outfit it would have added even more points. But I haven't used one since just because I like the challenge of doing it like the old timers did.

  Not to disparge anyone personally, but in the upcoming Election Day Match at our club I'll probably be the only one using a CF gun just as all the shooters did in the 1903 match Hudson set his record in. Seems kinda like cheating to use a .22 to try and beat his record. Of course the reply is..... It was legal to use it at that match, so......

PETE