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b.p.c.r. accuracy???? (Read 20085 times)

bluesteel45 Ex Member	b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Jul 27^th, 2005 at 11:37pm	Print Post
	ok guys, since alot of people seem to peruse this Q&A site, here's a question for you. i've been shooting /experimenting with the b.p.c.r. stuff for about a year now with mixed results,for the most part very positive. what kind of accuracy should we realistically expect from a "match ready" sillouette rifle?? my one shooting partner is a couple time state sillouette champion, [in class], and tells me that 1 1/2 minutes of angle is not just acceptable, but downright good.i'vee seen some 200 and 300 yard groups he's shot with his 38-55 that were way better than that , but he claims it's not to be expected. his shilioh 45-90, browning 40-65 and shilioh 40-65 all seem to peter out about 2 1/2" at 200 yards with some good handloading practices and he's out there shooting darn near every day. now i've talked to a few other guys who claim that M.O.A. groups are all they will stand for or the gun just isn't worth it's salt! my shooting partner tells me he wants to see them do this "on demand". i personally believe 1 1/2 M.O.A. is way more than adequate...should i expect more????......thanks....blue


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JDSteele Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #1 - Jul 28^th, 2005 at 7:32am	Print Post
	This should settle the question, at least for the moment. The Pedersoli company offers a nice plaque for achieving success in what they call their MOA challenge (or similar name). Four consecutive ten-shot groups all measuring less than 1 MOA with a 40-cal or larger rifle, BP only. To the best of my knowledge, to date only three plaques have been awarded, and two of these went to the same guy for success both with and without a scope. Dan Theodore won the pair of plaques and I forget the other guy's name. If all these braggin'-type guys were shooting all these braggin'-type sub-MOA groups then I think there would have been more awards made. My conclusion is that your friend's opinion is right on the money, 1.5 MOA is darn good. Also, please bear in mind that 2-3 MOA will clean most any Silhouette course around. Thus far no clean scores have been fired. I've seen my friend shoot several sub-MOA groups on steel, at all Silhouette ranges, but for only 4-5 shots. But try the same thing with 10 shots on paper and those little bitty groups somehow magically grow! My esteemed colleague & friend Mr hst may care to comment on this one since he's now a bona fide celebrity state championship match winner! Regards, Joe


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7529 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #2 - Jul 28^th, 2005 at 8:08am	Print Post
	There are few modern high power Silouette rifles that will stay under 1 1/2 moa for the entire 40 round match. Certanly not a hunter class rifle with a round forearm like BPC rifles have If your BPCS rifle will hold 1 1/2 moa for long runs not just the odd group it's pretty darn good. However you do need accucary. The Critters are none too large. The Ram for example is about 2 1/2 moa high by 4 moa wide. Pure bench rest Schuetzen rifles shoot at a 25 ring thats under 1 moa and in a match you don't see many clean the target. And they are breech seated with scopes, flat bottom forends, and unlimited weight, and only scored in 10 shot relays. Why not test it in match conditons ? Shoot it from x Sticks using iron sights at brown cardboard boxes with silouettes spray painted on. Match distances and with the same time limits Accucary tested thay way is the only thing thats important to a match shooter Groups from benchrest for 5 shots mean nothing when it comes to what a rifle will shoot in a match. Boats


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vbull Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #3 - Jul 28^th, 2005 at 11:02am	Print Post
	Over the years, I’ve heard the same thing about needing a sub-MOA rifle to be competitive in today’s silhouette matches. Well, it wouldn’t hurt to have sub-MOA performance out of the rifle, but in my experience it is much more important to have the shooter tuned for MOA performance. I have several rifles that have on occasion shot at or just under 1 MOA at 200 or 300 yds for 10 shots. But not on a regular basis. So, are these 1 MOA rifles? Possibly. They cannot do this day in, day out, but is it the rifle or is it the shooter and/or the conditions the groups are shot under? External conditions include but are not limited to the lighting, wind, temperature, mirage, haze, smoke, target background and even the comfort of the shooter (covered / uncovered firing points). Some internal conditions like, shooters physical state, visual acuity, ability to break clean shots and follow thru, mental condition and confidence in self and equipment, experience in that style of particular match, experience with his equipment, ability to follow instructions from a spotter. There are a lot more things that effect performance then how well your rifle can shoot that will put you into the winner’s circle. In silhouette, if you can consistently keep your groups into 1 ½ MOA, you will never loose a match. Another thing to consider, if your rifle can maintain a 1 MOA group and you as the shooter can hold and break at 1 MOA, your cone of fire will average about 1 ½ MOA but can go as high as 2 MOA and at times as low as ½ MOA. There are the statistician types that will argue with this, but it is my gut feeling it is correct for the most part. I don’t shoot silhouette much more then once or twice a year, but used to do it twice a month at one time. Today, I shoot bulls eye matches with these rifles in NRA midrange and long range and find it more necessary to have the most precision to get higher scores then with silhouette. A hit in the tail or the nose of the Ram will only give you a 7 on the 600 yd MR-1 target. Many matches these days are won with a score in the lower to mid 90’s which equates to an average of the 9 ring or better. The 9 ring is 18” in diameter or 3 MOA. Nobody to date has cleaned the target but several have come close with scores of 98 and several X’s. The 10 ring is 12” or 2 MOA. The midrange prone aggregate record for 200, 300, and 600 yds is a 296 with a pile of X’s. That means the shooter kept all but 4 of his 30 shots inside of 2 ½ MOA. So these 1 MOA shooters could easily clean the course but have never done so to date. I guess what I’m trying to say in a long and rambling fashion is : 1 ½ MOA is fine. The thing to work on is the biggest variable. The shooter. Frank Monikowski


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PETE Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #4 - Jul 28^th, 2005 at 3:44pm	Print Post
	Blue, Your buddy is right for the situation you describe. Shooting Shilouette rifles off cross sticks into less than 1 1/2 MOA would be very acceptable. Off the bench and using every trick I know my big bores will average right at 1 1/4 to 1 3/8", but off sticks 1 1/2 MOA would be pushing it. Of course you will always get those "keeper" targets we all love to show our buddies. A friend of mine has a 3/8" five shot group at 100 yds. from a .45/70 he likes to show around. I've got a stack of targets that will go under MOA from a .40/65, .45/70 and .50/90, but I've also got a much bigger stack that won't do that well. The trouble is that people go out and shoot one of these small groups and immediately think they have a sub MOA gun. Not hardly! In order to be considered a sub MOA gun it should be able to do that on demand under decent conditions. The main problem in not being able to achieve MOA with the big bores is recoil and torque. There is no way you can control these calibers and if you're not into the gun right exactly the same for each shot there goes your small group. This is why you won't see many match winners at Schuetzen matches using anything over .38 cal., with most using .32 cal.'s. PETE


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choken Participating Member Offline Posts: 33 Location: Nashville, TN Joined: Sep 20^th, 2004	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #5 - Jul 28^th, 2005 at 4:49pm	Print Post
	Frank, You failed to mention the name of the person that holds the 296 Midrange record....a humble man is a rare thing in the shooting sports. Congratulations on being both the record holder AND that rare man!


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bluesteel45 Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #6 - Jul 28^th, 2005 at 6:13pm	Print Post
	ya' see, i knew i asked the right bunch of "cranks" this question. i may be somewhat new to the realm of b.p.c.r., but not to the competitive shooting sports...might even have a state championnship or two in some other disciplines. i very much appreciate your 'insights' on this matter as all of you made some very good points on the whole "accuracy" question. pete, you could have mentioned your record"it aint' braggin' if you can do it!" [did i get that right mom???]....thanks.....blue


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bluesteel45 Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #7 - Jul 28^th, 2005 at 6:16pm	Print Post
	sorry frank...i think i meant to congratulate you.......i'm sure pete will pass it on.........blue


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xxgrampa Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #8 - Jul 29^th, 2005 at 5:35am	Print Post
	hi-ho BS 45, you certainly came to the rite place for info. like the choken said, v-bull holds the mid range record. but, he is also a many times nat'l champion at 1000 yds. ..ttfn..grampa.. PS also intrn'l champ..


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7529 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #9 - Jul 29^th, 2005 at 3:24pm	Print Post
	Good advice from all. here is my overall opinion for what it is worth. Accucary is fun to work on and there are endless possable combinations. But my experence is experementation does not help match scores at all as long as your rifle and outfit is up the the general standard for the particular match. You can do quite well just shooting the load combinations that are winning matches and never change or experement with a thing. At the level I shoot just elimanating mistakes is the best way for me to improve. I think Harry Pope said something like " It's the absense of bad scores that make a winner ?." I can't recall the exact quote. Last Hudson I shot I made 3 clear errors that cost at least 60 points. 3 out of 100 is a whole lot better than I used to do but still the way for me to improve scores is to work on no errors or pulled shots, not Sub moa accucary from my rifle. Boats


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Asst Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #10 - Jul 29^th, 2005 at 3:43pm	Print Post
	" A good score is not made by a large number of perfect shots, But the absense of poor ones." H.M. Pope


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7529 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #11 - Jul 29^th, 2005 at 4:40pm	Print Post
	Thats it !!! Boats


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PETE Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #12 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 8:08am	Print Post
	boats, Altho I'm an inveterate experimenter, who's always looking for that one hole group load, what you say about it not helping scores is so true. I believe it was Chapman, a noted offhand shot of his day, who said that once you achieve 4" groups stop fooling with load development and practice. A poor shot with the best gun still won't beat the best shot with an average gun. I think us Schuetzen shooters especially spend way to much time trying for accuracy that's not attainable when we should be working on our technique plus wind & mirage reading. PETE


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Asst Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #13 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 10:27am	Print Post
	99.99999% of the time the problem with accuracy is a single part of the equation, the NUT on the butt.


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leadball Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #14 - Jul 30^th, 2005 at 12:11pm	Print Post
	asst; It seems us red-blooded American men refuse to believe the accuracy problem could possibly be our fault. We will continue to search for the magic powder, bullet, rifle & etc that does not exist. leadball


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bluesteel45 Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #15 - Jul 31^st, 2005 at 8:12pm	Print Post
	wow!!! guess i got my moneys worth on that question! i'm sure i'm not the only one appreciating the info you guys are dishing out..........many thanks......blue


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MartiniBelgian Ex Member	A humbling experience from the nut behind... Reply #16 - Aug 2^nd, 2005 at 1:42pm	Print Post
	I thought it appropriate to post some comments about my 2nd BPCR long-range experience here on the board - actually my 1st real match, shot last WE at Bisley, UK. Of course, in Belgium, 400m is considered long range, and I only shot that once... Still I also shot a few 300, 500 and 600 yd matches and didn't do too bad. Believe me, this isn't simple! The match was run as follows: 5 ranging shots to get on target, the 1st shot to hit the target is counted as the 1st of 3 sighters, after which 15 shots for score. As soon as you're hitting the target, no information anymore from the butts. The big problem is not so much getting on target, but staying there... On the 900 yds, my very 1st shot (the barrel fouler) hit the target. Problem was, my next one missed... so did the next 11 shots, as I was trying to figure out how to adjust my sights to get back on there, this with changing wind conditions! Which finally worked for the remaining 5 shots Ah well, a lesson earned for the 1,000 yds in the afternoon - just put the 1st shot into the dirt to foul the barrel, and then go for the paper! Problem was, my 1st shot, aimed above the target, was a solid hit in the black. So I cranked in some 3 min's of elevation, and - wonder oh wonder! - stayed on target. Things went rather well untill the next wind shift (apparently the headwind had increased, of course I didn't notice ) Then I went back off target - and the same misery started all over, and there went my score. I really need to figure out a good way (does it exist?) to get back on target... Bottom line? Your rifle may be sub-MOA, your load very consistent, but if you don't know what to do or how to accurately assess the conditions (like me...), you're in for a very humbling experience. It's the nut behind that has to perform, catch the changing conditions, be as consistent as possible. And believe me, when you're there on the range, talk about sensory overload! 1 mistake, and you're off target, and there goes your score. Makes me only admire people like Frank even more - they know how to do it. Will I have another go at it? Most certainly! But I expect it to be a long and steep learning curve...


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bluesteel45 Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #17 - Aug 2^nd, 2005 at 9:31pm	Print Post
	MB, i'm sure you're not the first or last person to echo these very same sentiments.....this game is tough!! i also realize there are a multitude of factors to consider when assessing "how much accuracy" is necessary for any match ready rifle, be it "sillouette" or true "long range" shooting. sounds like a few of your problems may lead to a whole new set of subjects on the forum....we'll see.....blue


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bluesteel45 Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #18 - Aug 11^th, 2005 at 11:39pm	Print Post
	gentlemen, one thing i didn't really touch upon in my initial question was distance. i've been told that shooting at 100 yards, [as far a sillouette rifles are concerned], is useless because 200 yards is the minimum distance fired in a 'live' match.....[chickens]. so having an accurate 100 yard load could be deceptive as to its true longrange potential. shouldn't a rifle that's proven itself capable of decent accuracy at 100 yards be some form of indicator as to the accuracy potential of the RIFLE albeit with a different load [loads]?? i personally feel that different loads should be worked up for each respective distance or bank of sillouettes.sooo, is 100 yard shooting really all that useless at least as far as initial shooting sessions are concerned? should i skip it and go straight to 200 and 300 yards?...blue


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First_Shirt Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #19 - Aug 12^th, 2005 at 1:32am	Print Post
	Blue, all the good shooters are gone to Raton, so I'll try to answer... Personally, I do most of my load testing at 100 yards because of convenience. I think that distance is sufficient for sifting out what works and what doesn't. When I home in on a couple or three good looking combinations, I might shoot them at 200 or 300 yards to see if either one is clearly better. I'm primarily a silhouette shooter, so I'm not in it for the "bug-hole groups"...my approach might not work for you! I try to get a good shooting combination (1.25-1.5 MOA, consistently) and go shooting. On the other hand, some guys I know do all their shooting at 300 yards. I guess the bottom line is to do whatever makes you feel comfortable, but don't discount "short range" testing. Greg


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vbull Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #20 - Aug 12^th, 2005 at 7:47am	Print Post
	In the past, I used to start my load development at 100 yds simply because the local range was set up for that distance. Today, most of my load development work is started at 200 yds for the same reason. The club I belong to has a very active high power group and they do most of their shooting at 200 and 300 yds. I've never experienced a load the worked well at 100 yds but fell apart at 200 or 300 yds. I have had loads that did not shoot well beyond 600 yds but all of them had one of the following problems: velocity at the muzzle was less then 1100 fps, the bullet was too light or too heavy and the twist was too slow. Like a 1:22 for the 45-70, 1:18 for a 38-55. One of the best ways to reduce the learning curve on reading conditions, is to use an accurate .22 rf rifle and shoot it at 200 yds once you become comfortable with it at 100 yds. I can't overstate this. Shoot it on a day with good conditions and good ammunition. You will be amazed at the groups. 3 - 4" @ 200 yds is not uncommon with good sights on a day with a high overcast, light steady drift of wind and no mirage. This will build confidence in the rifle and your shooting form. Then try it on a gnarley day. Bright sun, lots of mirage and switching variable velocity wind. (kind of like our normal match days) and if you can keep them in the black, you've done well. The wind corrections at this distance are similar to our large bores at long range. My wife and I use a varity of .22's, Kimber govt., Winchester 52 and a Ballard .22. All of them work for this type of practice. Good luck, Frank M.


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MartiniBelgian Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #21 - Aug 12^th, 2005 at 9:11am	Print Post
	Frank, I figured it would be something like that - but unfortunately I live in a crowded, little country, and even 200yds is very hard to find here... I'm already happy to have a 75m range for rifle! And even worse, most if not all of our rifle ranges are walled (and roofed), meaning wind influence is minimal Maybe I should try and become member of the one club that has 100m+ ranges available, but 1st to get on the waiting list to get in. Still, I won't be dissuaded to try it again - I do like challenges. My only problem is the 1-2 times/year I have the opportunity to shoot real long range, and that is only when I cross the channel to Bisley, UK... There is an upcoming 400m match though here in the country, and I'll try that - but that is child's play compared to 900-1000 yards. After all, it is hard to miss the target....


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PETE Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #22 - Aug 12^th, 2005 at 2:05pm	Print Post
	Blue, Here's a thought for you. Pope,when making a .22 barrel, would do all the testing of it across his shop. Forget the distance but it wasn't 25 yds. He knew what he was looking for and could tell at that distance whether the barrel would be good or not. Any convenient distance you can shoot at is useful for load development. I shoot mostly Schuetzen at 100 & 200 yds. All my load workup is done at the local 100 yd. range, and then taken up to the 200 yd. range for confirmation. Sometimes a load has to be tweaked a bit, but not very often. The big problem with shooting the shorter distances is the lack of practice you need at the longer ranges. A lot of people think they have a good load at 100 yds. but it falls apart at 200 yds. or further. The real problem is lack of knowledge of how to handle a gun at those distances. As Frank points out take your .22 RF out and practice with that at the longest range you can shoot at. After a while you'll probably be amazed at how good that "bad" load shoots. PETE


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bluesteel45 Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #23 - Aug 12^th, 2005 at 5:16pm	Print Post
	not a bad idea practicing with a .22 rimfire @100 and 200 yards respectfully. i have a good old pre 'A' model 52 and a nice martini international with 16 power targetspot on top...that ought to help eliminate alot of sighting error. i've shot these at longer ranges once in a while , but not seriously enough to practice my light, wind , mirage doping capabilitys.i guess any trigger time, be it .22 or .45-70 is invaluable. i'm assuming most of you sucessful silouette shooters have different loads for each respective distance...i.e...200, 300, 385, and 500 meters??? maybe even a lighter bullet for the closer distance, at least as far as .45 or even .50 cals. are concerned????....blue


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38-55 Full Member Offline Posts: 126 Location: central pa Joined: Jul 18^th, 2004	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #24 - Aug 12^th, 2005 at 5:40pm	Print Post
	Blue, may be a different chicken load, but I don't know of anyone using a different load for each animal. Keep it as simple as possible.


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PETE Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #25 - Aug 12^th, 2005 at 7:33pm	Print Post
	blue, Lee Shaver in his instructions that come with his .22 Shilouette package says that the .22 will give you the same wind deflection as a .40/65 at the fulll range. I'm not a Shilouette shooter but have read that some will have a different load for the Chickens, but after that they use their regular load for all the other Shilouettes. Apparently tho most(?) use the same load for the full course. PETE


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First_Shirt Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #26 - Aug 13^th, 2005 at 12:22am	Print Post
	Blue, I confess to using a "chicken load", and shoot another load for the "laydown" animals. My chicken load is a 405 gr. RCBS flat point, with the gas check milled out. I use another RCBS boolit, the 500 gr. BPS for the other distances. Most guys that I shoot with shoot a lighter weight boolit for the offhand chickens, for recoil reduction, especially the .45 caliber shooters. As for .22 practice, why stop at 200 yards? Our group regularly shoots out to the turkey line (385 meters) whenever we get together, with a variety of .22 caliber rifles and inserts. It is great fun, and good practice...you get a lot of trigger pulling in in a relatively short time, at a lot less expense. I use an insert in my roller that is made by Dave Crossno...and was floored the first time I tried it. With cheap PMC standard velocity stuff it will hold the 10 ring of a standard 100 yd. smallbore target. Greg


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bluesteel45 Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #27 - Aug 13^th, 2005 at 7:33am	Print Post
	thanks for the info guys. i may try one of crossno's inserts in my highwall, nothin' like practicing with my sillouette rifle. i may be mistaken, but i'm sure i was told that brian chilson uses a different load for at least 3 distancesin sillouette, [b.p.c.r.]. maybe not 3 different bulets, but different powder charges. may be worth exploring more????...many thanks....blue


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JDSteele Ex Member	Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy???? Reply #28 - Aug 13^th, 2005 at 8:26am	Print Post
	It's a well-known fact that the group size will widen noticably as the bullet slows down & goes transsonic, just like an airplane buffets when it passes through the sound barrier in either direction. Of course this group widening, caused by the buffeting, will occur at different ranges depending upon the initial velocity of that particular load. Some loads go transsonic at the turkeys, some at the pigs, etc. Some Silhouette shooters have more than one load so that they can ensure their load remains transsonic until it reaches that particular range for which it was developed. This is a concept that is just now becoming known to most Silhouette shooters and so few are using it to date, but it is being used by some. Too complicated for me, I just shoot. Good luck, Joe


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