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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) b.p.c.r. accuracy???? (Read 20282 times)
bluesteel45
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #15 - Jul 31st, 2005 at 8:12pm
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wow!!! guess i got my moneys worth on that question! i'm sure i'm not the only one appreciating the info you guys are dishing out..........many thanks......blue
  
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MartiniBelgian
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A humbling experience from the nut behind...
Reply #16 - Aug 2nd, 2005 at 1:42pm
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I thought it appropriate to post some comments about my 2nd BPCR long-range experience here on the board - actually my 1st real match, shot last WE at Bisley, UK.
Of course, in Belgium, 400m is considered long range, and I only shot that once...  Still I also shot a few 300, 500 and 600 yd matches and didn't do too bad.
Believe me, this isn't simple!  The match was run as follows:  5 ranging shots to get on target, the 1st shot to hit the target is counted as the 1st of 3 sighters, after which 15 shots for score.  As soon as you're hitting the target, no information anymore from the butts.
The big problem is not so much getting on target, but staying there...  On the 900 yds, my very 1st shot (the barrel fouler) hit the target.  Problem was, my next one missed... so did the next 11 shots, as I was trying to figure out how to adjust my sights to get back on there, this with changing wind conditions!  Which finally worked for the remaining 5 shots Sad
Ah well, a lesson earned for the 1,000 yds in the afternoon - just put the 1st shot into the dirt to foul the barrel, and then go for the paper!  Problem was, my 1st shot, aimed above the target, was a solid hit in the black.  So I cranked in some 3 min's of elevation, and - wonder oh wonder! - stayed on target.
Things went rather well untill the next wind shift (apparently the headwind had increased, of course I didn't notice Undecided  )
Then I went back off target - and the same misery started all over, and there went my score. I really need to figure out a good way (does it exist?) to get back on target...
Bottom line?  Your rifle may be sub-MOA, your load very consistent, but if you don't know what to do or how to accurately assess the conditions (like me...), you're in for a very humbling experience.  It's the nut behind that has to perform, catch the changing conditions, be as consistent as possible.  And believe me, when you're there on the range, talk about sensory overload!  1 mistake, and you're off target, and there goes your score.  Makes me only admire people like Frank even more - they know how to do it.   
Will I have another go at it?  Most certainly! But I expect it to be a long and steep learning curve...
  
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bluesteel45
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #17 - Aug 2nd, 2005 at 9:31pm
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MB, i'm sure you're not the first or last person to echo these very same sentiments.....this game is tough!! i also realize there are a multitude of factors to consider when assessing "how much accuracy" is necessary for any match ready rifle, be it "sillouette" or true "long range" shooting. sounds like a few of your problems may lead to a whole new set of subjects on the forum....we'll see.....blue
  
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bluesteel45
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #18 - Aug 11th, 2005 at 11:39pm
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gentlemen, one thing i didn't really touch upon in my initial question was distance. i've been told that shooting at 100 yards, [as far a sillouette rifles are concerned], is useless because 200 yards is the minimum distance fired in a 'live' match.....[chickens]. so having an accurate 100 yard load could be deceptive as to its true longrange potential. shouldn't a rifle that's proven itself capable of decent accuracy at 100 yards be some form of indicator as to the accuracy potential of the RIFLE albeit with a different load [loads]?? i personally feel that different loads should be worked up for each respective distance or bank of sillouettes.sooo, is 100 yard  shooting really all that useless at least as far as initial shooting sessions are concerned? should i skip it and go straight to 200 and 300 yards?...blue
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #19 - Aug 12th, 2005 at 1:32am
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Blue, all the good shooters are gone to Raton, so I'll try to answer... Roll Eyes   

Personally, I do most of my load testing at 100 yards because of convenience.  I think that distance is sufficient for sifting out what works and what doesn't.  When I home in on a couple or three good looking combinations, I might shoot them at 200 or 300 yards to see if either one is clearly better.  I'm primarily a silhouette shooter, so I'm not in it for the "bug-hole groups"...my approach might not work for you!  I try to get a good shooting combination (1.25-1.5 MOA, consistently) and go shooting.

On the other hand, some guys I know do all their shooting at 300 yards.  I guess the bottom line is to do whatever makes you feel comfortable, but don't discount "short range" testing.

Greg
  
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vbull
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #20 - Aug 12th, 2005 at 7:47am
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In the past, I used to start my load development at 100 yds simply because the local range was set up for that distance.  Today, most of my load development work is started at 200 yds for the same reason.  The club I belong to has a very active high power group and they do most of their shooting at 200 and 300 yds.   
I've never experienced a load the worked well at 100 yds but fell apart at 200 or 300 yds.  I have had loads that did not shoot well beyond 600 yds but all of them had one of the following problems:  velocity at the muzzle was less then 1100 fps, the bullet was too light or too heavy and the twist was too slow. Like a 1:22 for the 45-70, 1:18 for a 38-55. 

One of the best ways to reduce the learning curve on reading conditions, is to use an accurate .22 rf rifle and shoot it at 200 yds once you become comfortable with it at 100 yds.  I can't overstate this.  Shoot it on a day with good conditions and good ammunition.  You will be amazed at the groups.  3 - 4" @ 200 yds is not uncommon with good sights on a day with a high overcast, light steady drift of wind and no mirage.  This will build confidence in the rifle and your shooting form.  Then try it on a gnarley day.  Bright sun, lots of mirage and switching variable velocity wind.  (kind of like our normal match days) and  if you can keep them in the black, you've done well.  The wind corrections at this distance are similar to our large bores at long range.
My wife and I use a varity of .22's, Kimber govt., Winchester 52 and a Ballard .22.  All of them work for this type of practice.  Good luck,  Frank M.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #21 - Aug 12th, 2005 at 9:11am
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Frank,

I figured it would be something like that - but unfortunately I live in a crowded, little country, and even 200yds is very hard to find here...   I'm already happy to have a 75m range for rifle!  And even worse, most if not all of our rifle ranges are walled (and roofed), meaning wind influence is minimal  Undecided
Maybe I should try and become member of the one club that has 100m+ ranges available, but 1st to get on the waiting list to get in.
Still, I won't be dissuaded to try it again - I do like challenges.  My only problem is the 1-2 times/year I have the opportunity to shoot real long range, and that is only when I cross the channel to Bisley, UK...   
There is an upcoming 400m match though here in the country, and I'll try that - but that is child's play compared to 900-1000 yards.  After all, it is hard to miss the target....
  
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PETE
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #22 - Aug 12th, 2005 at 2:05pm
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Blue,

  Here's a thought for you. Pope,when making a .22 barrel, would do all the testing of it across his shop. Forget the distance but it wasn't 25 yds. He knew what he was looking for and could tell at that distance whether the barrel would be good or not.

  Any convenient distance you can shoot at is useful for load development. I shoot mostly Schuetzen at 100 & 200 yds. All my load workup is done at the local 100 yd. range, and then taken up to the 200 yd. range for confirmation. Sometimes a load has to be tweaked a bit, but not very often.

  The big problem with shooting the shorter distances is the lack of practice you need at the longer ranges. A lot of people think they have a good load at 100 yds. but it falls apart at 200 yds. or further. The real problem is lack of knowledge of how to handle a gun at those distances. As Frank points out take your .22 RF out and practice with that at the longest range you can shoot at. After a while you'll probably be amazed at how good that "bad" load shoots.

PETE
  
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bluesteel45
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #23 - Aug 12th, 2005 at 5:16pm
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not a bad idea practicing with a .22 rimfire @100 and 200 yards respectfully. i have a good old pre 'A' model 52 and a nice martini international with 16 power targetspot on top...that ought to help eliminate alot of sighting error. i've shot these at longer ranges once in a while , but not seriously enough to practice my light, wind , mirage doping capabilitys.i guess any trigger time, be it .22 or .45-70 is invaluable. i'm assuming most of you sucessful silouette shooters have different loads for each respective distance...i.e...200, 300, 385, and 500 meters??? maybe even a lighter bullet  for the closer distance, at least as far as .45 or even .50 cals. are concerned????....blue
  
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38-55
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #24 - Aug 12th, 2005 at 5:40pm
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Blue, may be a different chicken load, but I don't know of anyone using a different load  for each animal.  Keep it as simple as possible.
  
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PETE
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #25 - Aug 12th, 2005 at 7:33pm
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blue,

  Lee Shaver in his instructions that come with his .22 Shilouette package says that the .22 will give you the same wind deflection as a .40/65 at the fulll range.

  I'm not a Shilouette shooter but have read that some will have a different load for the Chickens, but after that they use their regular load for all the other Shilouettes. Apparently tho most(?) use the same load for the full course.

PETE
  
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First_Shirt
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #26 - Aug 13th, 2005 at 12:22am
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Blue, I confess to using a "chicken load", and shoot another load for the "laydown" animals.  My chicken load is a 405 gr. RCBS flat point, with the gas check milled out.  I use another RCBS boolit, the 500 gr. BPS for the other distances.  Most guys that I shoot with shoot a lighter weight boolit for the offhand chickens, for recoil reduction, especially the .45 caliber shooters.

As for .22 practice, why stop at 200 yards?  Our group regularly shoots out to the turkey line (385 meters) whenever we get together, with a variety of .22 caliber rifles and inserts.  It is great fun, and good practice...you get a lot of trigger pulling in in a relatively short time, at a lot less expense.  I use an insert in my roller that is made by Dave  Crossno...and was floored the first time I tried it.  With cheap PMC standard velocity stuff it will hold the 10 ring of a standard 100 yd. smallbore target.   

Greg
  
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bluesteel45
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #27 - Aug 13th, 2005 at 7:33am
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thanks for the info guys. i may try one of crossno's inserts in my highwall, nothin' like practicing with my sillouette rifle. i may be mistaken, but i'm sure i was told that brian chilson uses a different load for at least 3 distancesin sillouette, [b.p.c.r.]. maybe not 3 different bulets, but different powder charges. may be worth exploring more????...many thanks....blue
  
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JDSteele
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Re: b.p.c.r. accuracy????
Reply #28 - Aug 13th, 2005 at 8:26am
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It's a well-known fact that the group size will widen noticably as the bullet slows down & goes transsonic, just like an airplane buffets when it passes through the sound barrier in either direction. Of course this group widening, caused by the buffeting, will occur at different ranges depending upon the initial velocity of that particular load. Some loads go transsonic at the turkeys, some at the pigs, etc. Some Silhouette shooters have more than one load so that they can ensure their load remains transsonic until it reaches that particular range for which it was developed. This is a concept that is just now becoming known to most Silhouette shooters and so few are using it to date, but it is being used by some.

Too complicated for me, I just shoot.
Good luck, Joe
  
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