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cisco4029
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38-55 Reloading Questions
Jun 25th, 2005 at 11:01pm
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I have just received my CPA rifle in 38-55 and have started to load for it.  I plan to shoot with a group in Scheutzen Matches that do not allow gas checks.  Anyway, I started out using the Meister 245 grain bullet sized .377, original length 38-55 brass and Accurate 5744 powder.  I used 23 grains of 5744 and Winchester LR primer.  Results were not too good at 50 yards.  I then dropped the powder charge and had some rounds loaded with 18, 19 and 20 grains.  The 18 grain charge was pretty good the 19 and 20 were quite a bit larger in group size.  I was also using Large Pistol primers.  Here is my question(s).  After firing, even the 18 grain charge, there is unburned powder scattered all down the length of the barrel.  What can I do to prevent this?  Why do some people recommend the Large Pistol primers?  I am full length resizing and applying a firm crimp.  I used a friends chrono with the 19 grain 5477 rounds and they were just over 1400FPS.  My thoughts are to lower the charge to 15 or 16 grains and maybe the unburned powder problem will go away.  I have no prooof or data to back this up, just a hunch.  Since the grouping was so good with 18 grains of 5744 I think it might get better if I get around 1100 to 1200 fps.  Anyone out there have any ideas?
  
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40_Rod
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #1 - Jun 26th, 2005 at 8:58am
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Try moveing to 4227. Are you breachseating? If so start out at about 18 grains. You didn't mention what twist your .38 barrel is in I suspect that you could use a heavier bullet that will give you more stability. Also try moveing out to 100 yards 50 is only good for getting on paper. Start trying loads at 100 yards when you have something that you are happy with move out to 200. You will have to icrease your a couple of tenths when moveing out to 200. This should get you started.

40 Rod
  
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PETE
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #2 - Jun 26th, 2005 at 3:11pm
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Cisco,

  A friend just took delivery on a .38/55 from CPA to. The barrel is a 1-15" twist and he's shooting a 300+ gr. bullet. (325?) 300 to 325 grs. is what a lot of the competitors are using, and works fairly decently for Shilouette to. The old "standard" bullet wgt. was 255 grs. in a 1-18" twist, so your gun should easily handle bullets up to about 350 grs. If your barrel slugs .375 - .376 then your .377 bullets are the correct size.

  You mention using "original length" cases. You might want to give CPA a call about this as it's my understanding that they cut their chambers for the current "short" cases. If I recall right the gun mentioned above is so cut.

  Altho 5744 is a decent powder it's not considered the best for shooting Schuetzen. The unburned powder you see in the barrel is pretty common with this type powder and not a whole lot you can do about it. Going to a heavier bullet will help to some extent, but in most cases doesn't cure the problem.

  The powder you want to use is 4227 as 40_Rod suggests. It's considered the standard powder to use for that Schuetzen, altho some like 4759 to. Somewhere around 18.0 to 18.5 grs. should get you the accuracy you need.

  You didn't mention what accuracy you're getting but you will need to get down to MOA or better, with a scope, to be really competitive. The 25 ring is 3/4 MOA and scores with scopes, off the bench will have to be in the 245 x 250 and above to win.

  You also didn't mention if you're using fixed ammo or breech seating. Altho fixed ammo will work ok; if you really get into Schuetzen shooting you'll want to go to breech seating.

  Rem. 2 1/2 pistol primers seem to be used by the majority of shooters if their gun will fire them.... some won't.... one of mine doesn't...... altho you will want to try as many brands as you can get ahold of as it's one of the things to try when working up loads. The reason for using this primer is the cup is a little softer and will fire in some of the older guns more reliably because of their weak(end) main springs. I use both the Rem. 2 1/2's and Win. LR primers for most load development. A lot of testing I've done has shown the latter to be the best from lot to lot.

  1400 fps is a little faster than you'll probably need, altho whatever your gun likes is the best way to go. In my original High Wall .38/55 a 325 gr. Brooks bullet, breech seated, goes 1368 fps using 18.2 grs. of IMR 4227. In my gun this will average about 3/4" at 100 yds.

  Also as 40_Rod suggests you'll have to move back to 100 & 200 yds. as these are the normal Schuetzen ranges. Work up the best load you can at 100 yds. and then check the load at 200 and adjust if necessary. There are a coupla Schuetzen ranges that are only 100 yds....... Monett and Aurora come to mind..... but most CF rifle matches are shot at 200 yds. Both bench and offhand.

PETE
  
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cisco4029
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #3 - Jun 26th, 2005 at 9:04pm
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Pete and 40_Rod-

Thanks for the replies.  I really appreciate it.  Well, the rifle I have is actually the Silhouette CPA with 32" Badger barrel with 1-15 twist.  CPA actually cuts the chamber for the original length brass.  What difference this makes I do not know except the original length is a bit longer (2.130).   I am firing fixed ammo and do not plan to breech seat.  My bullets are store bought Meister 245 grain sized at .377.  The bore diameter on the rifle is .3759 (info CPA sent with rifle).  I started at 50 yards just to see what grouping I could get with the 5744 and at 18 grains I could manage 2 1/2" groups.  I have mounted a scope which is a 20x Unertl.  Looking at the powder burn rate chart I see the IMR 4227 or H4227 are just a step up (faster) than the Accurate 5477.   I am just starting out and realize there are so many variables that you could spend forever figuring out what will work.  I certainly would like to start out with a load that would work at 200 yards as that is the range we will use.   I will give the 4227 powder a try as I have that on hand.  Again, thanks.  I need all the help I can get.
  
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #4 - Jun 27th, 2005 at 2:09pm
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Cisco,

Some good advice so far, Perhaps I can add something. I have shot a CPA 38/55 for over 10 years now

Primers, I used to use Fed Mag primers in my 38/55 CPA when using Black powder.  CCI 200 standard rifle primers for my smokeless loads.  Then Paul Shuttleworth speed locked the action for me. It's basicly a lighter and shorter throw hammer. When the speed locked hammer hit the mag primers about half would not go off.

Switching to the softer Remmington 2 1/2's which are large pistol primers ignition is 100 %.  It makes no difference to the accuracy as far as I can tell. But offhand the speed lock to my mind is better. And in a long Hudson match it's easier to cock too.

Powders, I am no experementer just a target shooter. The rule has always been IMR 4759 for Smokeless loads in a 38/55. It bulks up nice and gives complete ignition with bullets in the 300 gr category.  Other powders may be slightly better or less expensive  but 4759 is a standard and will not give bad results. Why not try it as a base load just to see what happens.   

The disavantage to 4759 is the grains are large and don't work through some powder measures well. Plus you can't put a pound of it in a standard IMR can and sometimes dealers will price a half a pound same as a full pound of other IMR powders.

Only thing that could change would be your lighter bullet , IMR 4227 has always been the standard for the 32/40 and 200 gr bullets. Could be lighter bullets in the 38/55 like 4227 better.  The disavantage to 4227 is it is possable to double charge a case in the 38/55

The way I would compare is to look for complete ignition with no unburned powder in the bore. If 4759 gives it then stick with it to work out your loads. If it won't complety burn then go to the 4227

I shot two different 300 gr bullets in mine when throated for Fixed ammo. One 300 gr LBT custom spritzer that has large greese groves and is dedicated to Black powder. And a stock Saeco 300 gr flat nose that I used only for smokeless.  It has more greese groves and they are much smaller.  The real reason I used two different ones is so I could tell them apart when loaded

Now I have throated the barrel and will shoot it breechseated. Can't say anything about that yet.

Also that 300 gr LBT mold is for sale now and If you want to try it let me know.  Its a real good Black powder bullet out to 500 yds.  I plan to keep the 300 gr Saeco just in case I have to use some fixed ammo.

On the store bought bullets.  I have another CPA in 32/40 and to get the sight lines set and before I could get a mold for it I tried a box of store bought bullets. Terrible results. I suspect they just did not fit the barrel well. Custom molds are a fair amount of trouble fitting and order lead time wise. Paul S keeps a supply of Hoch molds on hand that fit his chambers. It's fool proff if you order one of them.

Finaly although I would not have admitted it 10 years ago breech seating is the way to go. 

Boats

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PETE
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #5 - Jun 27th, 2005 at 2:49pm
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Cisco,

  Boats' advice is spot on to. His comments on 4759 are true and it's why most Schuetzen shooters use 4227. Since most Schuetzen shooters will breech seat tha tmeans they load at the bench, which of course means you will be using bulk measure. 4227 goes thru measure in a very reliable way and 4759 doesn't. But, if you plan on only using fixed ammo 4759 is as good a powder as any to use.

  On bought bullets...... I agree wholeheartedly with Boats in that you won't be satisfied with them in the long run. They are in the business to make money, and taking the time to weigh and visually check each bullet would be pretty cost prohibitive. They will be ok while you see if you want to continue Schuetzen shooting but eventaully you'll want to cast your own. As Boats says, get one of the Hoch moulds from CPA for your barrel. You won't go wrong if the ones my buddy got for his two CPA's are any indication.

  The rifle you mention should make an excellent bench gun with it's Shilouette stock, but will be a slight handicap for offhand. But that can be remedied by having CPA make one especially for that end of the game. Just throw money at it and you can have anything you want.  Grin

  The load I mentioned in my last post is kind of iffy at 200 yds. since my High Wall has an original barrel that has a 1-18" twist, but should work well at that range in your 1-15" twist. Or a charge pretty close to it. The load I use at 200 yds. is with a 255 gr. oversize SAECO ahead of 17.0 grs. of 4227 for a MV of 1378 fps. The best score I shot with it in competition last year was a 247-7c. Mostly tho it'll average about a 243.

PETE
  
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cisco4029
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #6 - Jun 27th, 2005 at 11:52pm
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Pete & Boats-

You guys have given me lots of valuable info and I greatly appreciate it.  I will give the 4227 a try.  I received my rifle with the stock sanded, so I am now in the process of applying a finish.  Might take 30 days or so, if I can be patient.  The guys I shoot with are telling me things that you have mentioned.  One is "store bought bullets will not give the accuracy you need".  Two is "unless you breech seat you will never be able to compete with those that do".  Yep, I know I will probably have to start casting my own.  Breech seating is down the road, too.  I just figured that since I am new to this single shot rifle thing I will start out slow and work up.  Gosh, it seems like I have spent way, way too much money already.  But, I do enjoy shooting my CPA.  It really does not matter if I am able to win a match right now.  I am on a learning expedition and lost in a jungle it seems.  You guys gave some ideas on the 4227 as far as powder weight (17, 18.18.5) to start, but how about the 4759?  Since it is just above the 4227 in burning rate would I be safe to start out at 17 or less?  I have three different loading manuals but none of them show these powders for cast bullet loads.  I will stick with the store bought Meister bullets for now.  Thanks again and have a great 4Th of July!!!

Jim
  
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #7 - Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:06am
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Cisco

The modern manuals are not so good for old cartridges. Even Lymans 

With the usual caution on starting light and working up slowly paying attention to preasure signs, 

I use 3 old manuals. Mattens, Sharpes and Lymans ideal handbooks.  If you can get a look at either Sharpes or Mattens it's worthwhile they are very comprensive. In Sharpes they use SR # 80 data. 4759 is the modern replacement for SR # 80 and as a rough guide loads can be about the same.  Lymans data is much more sparse but has loads specifly for 4759.

17 Grs 4759 should be a good starting load for the 38/55 with 4759.  Lyman says for a 255 gr cast plain base 10.5 grs gives 1050 fps. With a 280 gr gas check they call for 21 grs giving 1589 fps. I would use a Cronograph if possable and look for about 1250 fps.  And keep an eye on the unburned powder. As long as it burns ok then you just need to settle on the velocity that suits you and your rifle best. 1250 fps is about a 38/55 standard.

On Breech seating. It's realy a lot less expensive and trouble thah fixed ammo, You don't need a lot of special dies that almost always need to be tailored to your rifle and chamber 

With our old cartridges the Bullet is the real key to accucary.  The Cartridge case can only mess up your carefully cast bullet.  There is little difference in powders and primers as long as they generaly work OK.  Breech seating lets you focus on what's important.

Good luck

Boats
  
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #8 - Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:23am
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Cisco
I'm the fella that Pete mentioned that just got a new CPA 38/55. As you did I did not get the stock finished, will do myself. I was going to wait until I had the stock all finished before I shot the rifle. I couldn't stand it, had to get out and shoot it, got a couple coats of Pilkington finish on it as a sealer. I had a 28" x14" twist Douglas bbl on it #6 weight. As the others have commented breech seating and casting your own bullets is the only way to get the ultimate accuracy out of the rifle that it is capable of. CPA sets their rifles up for the Hoch bullet. I only got to shoot my rifle one morning before our club shoot. I am using IMR4227, Hoch NP 25:1  with Emmerts lube and Rem 2 1/2 primers. Groups were running around 1", with two .7658 and .850. Still need to tweak it to find out what the best load is going to be. 
This is my third CPA, and I can't say enough about the accuracy of their rifles.
Bob
  

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PETE
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #9 - Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:33am
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Cisco,

  Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say fixed ammo will never beat someone shooting breech seated. In reading the match results in the "Black Powder Cartidge News" you'll see Steve Garbe shoots a lot of offhand with fixed ammo and not to many people beat him.

  A lot is going to depend on your rifle and how it was chambered and throated. The guns the old time Schuetzen shooters used were pretty iffy in how the chambers were lined up with the barrel. Chambers were pretty loose to. So breech seating was almost universally used in order to get what accuracy was available in those guns. Today tho if your gun was set up by a competent gunsmith...... and CPA seems to do a decent job..... and has the chamber lined up perfectly with the bore, has a minimum SAAMI chamber, along with a mould cut to fit a properly cut throat, there's no reason why fixed ammo can't be competitive.

  You're right in starting out slow and working into the game. The only fault I see with the way you're doing it is using boughten bullets. Seems like your buddies agree. One thing I would suggest you do with those bullets is to separate them out by wgt, in tenth gr. increments, and then shoot them in that order. With a little luck you won't be shooting any scores/groups with bullets that vary more than a tenth of a gr. For those bullets that weigh way out of line from the norm, or have obvious visual defects, just use them for foulers and the first shot you should put into the bank when starting a new relay. This off course is good advice when you start casting too, altho you can throw the bad ones back into the pot if you want.

  I can't give you any loads for 4759 as I haven't used any since IMR threatened to discontinue making it back in the early 80's. They changed their minds in a hurry tho. But, I'm sure there are quite a few on here that do use it and hopefully they'll chime in.

  Be careful tho about using any loads suggested. With 4227 I have found there can be as much as 100 fps difference for the same load between lots. That's why I mentioned the MV with the loads I gave since if you find your gun varies quite a bit from them you'll know what you have to do to get reasonably close. Also each gun is an individual and will more than likely take a slightly different powder charge in order to show you it's best. Treat all suggestions as an area to work around. Start out a bit low and work up to, and beyond very carefully. 

  As you mention... you've already spent a lot of money.  Smiley You haven't even started yet if you really get into it. The nice part is that once you have, or make, all the tools you need you won't have to get them again.

PETE
  
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #10 - Jun 28th, 2005 at 5:20pm
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I have a 38-55 CPA with a 1-15 Badger barrel.  I use a 310 grain Pope style bullet from a Hoch mould, which I breech seat.  Federal 210 primer, home made lube and 4759 powder.  I shoot a light load of 4759, 16 1/2 grains.  It is very accurate, not a lot of speed but they stay tight.  I also use the rifle for BPCR with fixed loads.  The accuracy with BP is also very good.  Use the Paul Jones Creedmoor for BPCR.
  
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cisco4029
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #11 - Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:24pm
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Since the stock is off and being slowly finished I decided to weigh some of the Meister store bought bullets I am shooting.  They are advertised as 245 grains.  I had never weighed them before and just took it that they were 245 grain.  Well, they were not even close.  I weighed 99 bullets and they came out like this:

216.5 grains - 3 bullets
217    grains - 24 bullets
217.4 grains - 21 bullets
217.6 grains - 4 bullets
217.8 grains - 12 bullets
218    grains - 21 bullets
218.2 bullets - 4 bullets
218.4 bullets - 4 bullets
218.5 bullets - 6 bullets

I do not know how much closer you guys that cast your own can get.  From 216.5 to 218.5 is a 2 grain difference.  How would you segregate these.  Put all those +/- .5 grain together, or would I need to keep them within +/- .1 of each other?  Heck, I am not even shooting right now, but excited as you can see.  I want to use up all the Meister bullets before I make a move to cast my own.
  
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PETE
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #12 - Jun 29th, 2005 at 6:09pm
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Cisco,

  Well, I can't talk for Meister, nor do I know which moulds they use. But, the wgt. advertized for most moulds is what they will weigh if cast of pure Lead. But, the figures you're getting are WAY off what even that difference would be.


  One thing you can also do is to take one of the bullets and start filing it in half. What you will be looking for are voids. Most bullets will have a small void in them. But if the main cause of your bullets not even being close to advertized wgt., then you might have some pretty big voids in them. If you don't find anything but very small pin holes, then forget about the wgt. difference.

  Actually 2 grs. overall difference is not all that bad in a bullet of that wgt. Actually I'm kind of impressed! Some people except, and shoot a difference larger than that. But in Schuetzen you want to keep the bullets you're shooting as close as possible to each other.

  What I would do is to load up the 216.5 gr. bullets and put them in your box. Then load up the 217.0 gr. ones and put them into the same box right behind the others. Do the same with all the others. When you shoot them take the first one out of the box and proceed down the line.

  With this method you can see that when you fire a 5 or 10 shot group there won't be more than 1/2 a gr. difference between the first and last bullet in the group. In fact, as you can also see many groups will all have the same wgt. bullets.

  Now this is using the figures you gave me. Personally I would segregate the bullets out in .1 gr. increments and shoot them in that order. The whole idea is to shoot your score/group with bullets that weigh as close to each other as possible.

  Using your figures you might want to use the 216.5 gr. and every thing over 218.2 grs. as foulers, and concentrate more on the center of your wgt.'s.

  When you get casting your own and weighing them out you will notice that they will weigh out in a Bell Curve. This will be natural. There will be several tenths of a gr. on either side of the top of your Bell that will be the optimum wgt. for that particular batch....... Strangely enuf this average will float slightly from batch to batch, which is normal also. It will be up to you how far off the top of the Bell you are willing, or have found thru shooting, that you want to go. The rest you can use as foulers or throw back into the pot.

  Outside of this, the only cause for rejection will be bases that are damaged in some way. It was proven a long time ago that you can nick up the nose of a bullet quite a bit with no loss of accuracy. But have a nick in the edge of the base and accuracy goes down hill fast.

PETE
  
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #13 - Jun 29th, 2005 at 10:10pm
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I don't understand what 38/55 mould would cast a 217 gr bullet--maybe this is a cowboy action bullet but never the less it seems very light. Most shooters are shooting well over 300 gr bullets in their 38/55.  leadball
  
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Re: 38-55 Reloading Questions
Reply #14 - Jun 29th, 2005 at 10:20pm
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Pete
Are those 216-18 gr. bullets a bit light for a 15" twist rate in the 38/55? 
Bob
  

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