Yes, I found Steve's post most interesting.

Is a old record really broken if it is shot with our new rifles, powders, sights and with unlimited sighter shots?

Maybe the score would be equaled but if not shot in the same manner with similar equipment then I say No Way was it bettered or equaled.

I think it would be more of an accomplishment if done as it was then, or as close to that as possible.
None of the rifles that are manufactured today unless they are very close to the originals.  None of the new cartridges.

It would be exciting to see it done the "Old" way.

It's true, as Steve Garbe says, that you took 100 shots and that was your score...... hit or miss. Your shots were recorded as you took them by a scorekeeper who recorded them on your score card. This had to be done since many people shot on the same target.

  Pope missed winning a match one time when while loading his gun (muzzle-breech loader) he saw a friend enter the shooting house and went to greet him. On returning he must have thought that he'd put the bullet down, because he fired it with just a charged case and it was recorded as a missed shot.

  A coupla things Garbe didn't mention in his article... if I recall right.... One was that there was no time limit on shooting your 100 shots, other than it had to be in the allotted time of the match. Some were even known on two day shoots to see they weren't shooting well that day and came back the next to finish. Second, as mentioned, there were no sighter shots, but, a Schuetzen match was composed of many matches and your gun could be fouled and sighted in for the days conditions on any of them before starting the 100 shot match, or any other important match.

  One thing I don't recall ever reading tho was if once you started your 100 shot match that you had to fire it straight thru, even if you did it over a two day period. It would be interesting to know that if conditions changed drastically, or you came back to finish the next day with a clean gun, whether you could break it off and shoot another match to correct any problems before continuing.

PETE

Pete,
I've read four different accounts of the Election day match of 1903...three were first-hand. The scope controversy over whether scopes would be allowed or not took up a couple of hours in the morning. Some shooters, including L.P. Ittel who was a favorite to win, just flat ran out of daylight and didn't finish the 100 shots.. The rules stated that the 100 shots must be done in one day. Hayes, the wily old veteran, figured out that he wouldn't have time to finish and gracefully retired to "soothe the feelings of fellow riflemen" over the scope controversy. Dorrler, who was animately against scopes being used, had shot a few targets when someone made a wisecrack and he flew off the handle and went home. Sounds familiar to some of today's competitions?

Shooters were allowed to foul their rifles and there was a sight-in area away from the shooting house...but when you stepped to the window it was for all the marbles. Once the warner punched your ticket that was it. Oh...if you or anyone else talked to the warner while he was doing his job...you were off the range. These rules may seem strict but remember, the money that some of these boys were shooting for, or represented backers for, would have bought a comfortable house in those days. This was serious shootin'. 

There's no record that can't be broken if one is willing to put in the time it takes to practice and keep his head in the right place...it's just now-a-days most folks can't justify that sort of dedication given their other responsibilities. It was the same back then...there was far and away the biggest portion of competitors who shot a good score and had a good time. Like Farrow said, " The really proficient offhand shot will most always find himself in a class by himself."

We shoot our Election Day match in Cody under the old rules and have enjoyed increased participation every year. Shooters like to compete under the same restrictions as the old-timers to see if they measure up. I think the future of our sport lies in upholding those rules and records...not "dumbing down" Schuetzen to the point of where it is not a real competition any longer. Just my opinion but I have always enjoyed shooting for money.

The best match is were there are enough prizes for everyone to win something...and good shooters are rewarded for their efforts. Average shooters need to be in matches with top shooters to compare notes. When you put too much luck into a match to make it "fair" you turn away the serious shooters. At the same time average shooters need to be encouraged. This is where the Schuetzen medals are so important.

I'm afraid I've written too much...and speaking of matches, I've got to get ready for the next Schuetzen match in Montana. 

Hold Center,

Steve Garbe

Steve, when you read this let the group know how many shooters can be handled at Cody. Thanks

You had some pithy though quite correct observations regarding the present state of our kind of shooting. "Dumbed down" is pretty harsh but we get the drift. We all have a duty to preserve the level of qualtity sport that we are guardians of. When I drive by a shooting facility and see a bunch of adults with quasi Ninja Swat Team Special Forces Ranger costumes and them banging away with race guns, my thoughts go to turning the fire hoses on their arses! I'm sitting here looking a the back inside cover of John Dutcher's fine book on the Ballard rifle. The inside cover is a group photo entitled "Eighteenth Biennial Rifle Tournament, Davenport, Iowa, 1931. There are 54 men in the photograph, all sitting with their rifles. Nine of these men appear to be at least 70 years old. Many in their late forties and early fifties. I'm sure they enjoyed the fellowship, stood up and did their best. and did it in the manner that made "Schuetzen" a premier shooting sport. We should not do less. Though I misplaced the name guide to the photo I recall that the second shooter seated from the left was famous Chis Westergaard. He and the forth shooter seated from the right have rifles equiped with adjustable buttplates!

Jim I agree that the 2301 in next to impossible to best. And over the years I've been around Olympic and International class shooters and they are not going to do it either, unless they had perfect conditions, had trained and trained and trained. You have shot more scores over 2300 than any shooter. You know the barriers. Perhaps an approach would be to leave the 10K prize out there but offer somewhat lesser amounts for certain levels. I believe Hays, and this identity is a guess, shot a 2172 on the schuetzen target with a rifle meeting NRA specs, 10lbs, 3 lb trigger. (about 1885) At that time the highest score I read of was a 2211 with schuetzen type rifle. Let's consider that 2200 barrier as one that's approachable but surely tough. Maybe $1,000.00 for the first shooter under traditional rules to best it. Would be interesting. Please keep comments and suggestions coming in. I do think that a PR combination of money, history, and challenge would bring new folks into the sport. How many new faces since the heyday of the Coors shoots?

Dick, I'm enjoying this subject of Dr. Hudson!  It gets tiresome reading about bullets, loads, etc.  Offhand shooting is my favorite part of the sport.

I think Ballard, CPA, and the other rifle manufacturers would love it if we had a traditional match for 10 lb rifles with 3 lb trigger pulls.   Think of the rifles they could sell.  Personally, I'm not interested in them.

Let the guys shoot what they have now.  I don't have any real concrete suggestions for money prizes.  Maybe  a $1,000 prize for the person who can shoot a 2250 in a match --iron sights offhand.  That is within reach.  My main point is we need to make the prize attainable.  Dr. Hudson's score was something of a fluke as you mentioned in an email earlier.  He never equaled that score again that I know of.  The longer I think about it, the more I'm in awe of the man and his abilities.  They didn't call him the human benchrest for nothing.

If I had the time, I would like to practice offhand irons everyday for a while just to see how good I could get.  But, I simply don't have the time.

Jim Luke

Dick, you and leadball may have something.  A 10 shot bench match  for group size to beat Rowland"s record would bring more participation than an offhand match. A lot more!

Jim Luke

Steve,

  Thanks for the reply. I won't go over everything in your message but would like to touch on the individual membership if you don't mind.

  I do belong to a Schuetzen club but the officers in their infinite wisdom, over the objection of many/most of the members, will not affiliate with any SS organization. There might be other clubs whose members are in the same boat.

  Also, I would not hesitate to say that the majority of the shooters who will read this thread don't belong to any club at all. That would leave the vast majority of SS shooters no opportunity to partake in your matches. The only way I would have of comparing myself in a match with other ASSRA, ISSA, or WSU shooters would be thru postal matches.

  Personally I like your target and I like your rules, especially the separation of the traditonal and modern(?) shooters.

  Maybe if I can get some targets from you I'll just shoot your Election Day match (on the day specified) by myself just so I can see how I compare with you guys. I can think of a coupla other guys I can probably drag in too. 

PETE

I have been folowing this thread and I have a couple of Ideas. 
Match funding How about the match shooters funding the prize. Set a match fee of the target price plus $25.00 that would go in the pot. it won't take long for the prize to grow and the more money in the pot the more compitition for the prize. This match won't be won at the first try. The match would have to be shot during a club sponsered event on the correct target with witnesses under the rules that Steve sets up.
As to the east-west team match I think this is a great Idea. Both teams could pick a day and shoot the match at their respective clubs. Then share targets and scores over the internet. This is the kind of event that could draw interest to the sport from outside the Schuetzen comunity. Hopefully this would attract new shooters to our sport.
As to Mr. Welch's claim in the Roland record. As I understand the story it was shot without witnesses. Mr. Welch's ethical lapses of the past cast serious doubt on the event. 

40 Rod

40 Rod, I agee that all participants get something, even a small medallion showing they participated. Last weekend I shot in the Arizona State Muzzleloading Championships. Each competitor, and there was over 60, received just for showing up 1lb of black powder. (50 lbs was donated)Then based on the scores each competitor chose from a table of merchandise. They stuff was abundant and of good quality. Agg. winners, match winners, received the usual plaques. But it was a well-run fun event and folks enjoyed getting a little something back

Pluton, glad to read your input on this topic.  I think you have a splendid idea about determining the score for the 100 shot Hudson match with iron sights.

A fifty shot version of this match is fired every year at the ISSA matches in Raton.  The high score to date is Earl Hines' 1117.  Take this times two and you have 2234.  Having shot this match several times, I feel breaking 2200 would be quite an accomplishment.  That's averaging 22 points per shot.  That's not extremely high, but you sure couldn't have too many wide shots and still achieve that score.

Hopefully, Dick Norton and Steve Grabe will have something to say about your ideas.

This Hudson Match topic has generated a lot of talk on this web site.  Hopefully, that will lead to a real match in the future.

Coolhd

Waterman,

  You're absolutely right about the fatique factor entering into a 100 shot match. There aren't to many of us that are in good enuf shape to shoot a match that long and not be tired. Especially if you're shooting a 12 lb. rifle. In fact the next day there are usually complaints about how sore everyone is! Having shot in several of those matches tho..... and I'm 65...... what I've found is that your scores for the individual targets goes up and down in a manner that would look like a wave pattern if graphed out. The last score is not necessarily your worst either.

  Your mention of shooting the .22 reminded me of an article in an old Journal. Seems this author was showing how at least several modern day shooters had regularly beaten Hudsons record. What got me shaking my head about that was the fact that they had done it with .22 rifles and shot those scores at 100 yds. Where's the fatique factor and the increase in shooting error with distance? As far as I could see the whole article was worthless....... and yet it was repeated a coupla years later as tho this was important news!

  You're also right about the rifle Hudson used to make his record. It was a .32/40 Ballard. From the picture of it, it appears to be a Union Hill #8 with a Schuetzen buttplate and DST. About the only difference between it and most Schuetzen rifles of the era was that, altho not a rare feature, Hudson attached a cork pad on the forend just in front of the frame, rather than using a palm rest. A 10 pd. wgt. limit and 3 pd. trigger pull would be the requirement of the NRA matches of that era, and were meant to simulate the military rifles of the era. In Schuetzen shooting of the period if you could hold it up in the offhand position you could shoot it. Altho the average was about 12 pds., some used guns weighing up around 16 pds. and more Set triggers were the norm, and as long as they were safe there was no problem.

  Hudson used a duplex load for his record, so as far as I can recall I haven't read whether he cleaned his rifle between shots or not. One fact that might have said he didn't was that he used the muzzleloading method which reduced the need for cleaning. But, since BP was still being used by many shooters they were allowed to wipe the bores out between shots. In fact many shooters were very religious about it being very careful to wipe exactly the same for every shot.

  Clothing rules..... This is gonna get ticklish in the future. It will depend on whether you're shooting under ASSRA, or WSU rules. The ASSRA is more liberal in letting you use a shooting coat, while the WSU forbids it, if I read their rules right. Shoes? I don't recall whether anybody has a rule about those. And. No you don't have to wear a neck tie if you don't want to, altho some will, and also wear a shooters apron and bowler hat. In fact I'm kinda looking for the latter now! 

  .22 Hudson match?...... Again ASSRA and WSU might look at this cal. differently. The ASSRA does have such a match, but not sure about the WSU. Our club doesn't shoot a 100 shot .22 match but we do have several different 10 shot matches (bench & offhand) and they are shot at 100 yds. using the 100 yd. German ring target. You can use the 100 yd. Small Bore Rifle target if you'd like but it's quite a bit larger. If you use it then make up an overlay with a 3/4" 25 ring and add an additional 3/8" to the radius of each suceeding ring to get an idea of how you'd do in an actual match. If you end up with a score over 200 per ten shots you're doing doing better than most. Let us know how you came out.

PETE

Dick,

  I couldn't agree more. I work out four days a week. Two days on the wgt.'s for upper body strength and endurance, and four days on aerobics for endurance. As a result tho my shooting suffered terribly during our Winter indoor shooting, but I'm trying to look at the long term benefits this Summer as I get to the point where what I'm doing doesn't wear me out completely for the day.

  As you mention, it would be nice if someone who knows what specific exercises would benefit us as shooters would post something. Mostly what I'm doing is to strengthen up a pair of legs that got bunged up pretty badly a year ago. Those are pretty well under control now so switching over to something that would be more specific to our sport would be nice to know. Your points on what Chuck Blender does are good and will be good to look at. Never thought of the deep knee bends while holding your rifle up (one of my weak points), but I have read that the knees are one of the first things to go in your muscle and bone structure so anything to keep them in shape would certainly be a help.

  I have to laugh when you mention people can improve their physical conditioning up to a very advanced age. So true! As I mentioned before I'm 65. When I started on my wgt. schedule I admittedly started out light at about 3000 pds. per 7 station workout. But I've worked that up to 8100 pds. now and am scheduling another 200 pds. for the first of the week. My goal is to get up to 10,000 pds. and then keep it there.

  The best thing, of course, would be to shoot a coupla hours a day, but not many have the time or can afford the expense so doing some wgt. and aerobic training is the next best thing in my opinion.

Now if I can just knock off the 20 pds. the doc thinks I ought to. 

PETE

Dick, you are correct about the conditioning routine.  I have found it best to halt my exercise program 3 or 4 days before a match.  Then I'm usually at full strength come match day.  Olympic training manuals recommend the same type of schedule.

Although we stand still--or try to--in offhand shooting, the physical toll of picking up the rifle at least 100 times and putting it down an equal number is fatiguing.  Think about it.  If the rifle weighs 16lbs as mine does, then you have lifted a minimum of 1600 lbs for a 100 shot match.  So we need all the energy we can muster during the competition.

Good luck at Phoenix!  Wish I could be there.

Coolhd