Dick, you and leadball may have something.  A 10 shot bench match  for group size to beat Rowland"s record would bring more participation than an offhand match. A lot more!

Jim Luke

Steve,

  Thanks for the reply. I won't go over everything in your message but would like to touch on the individual membership if you don't mind.

  I do belong to a Schuetzen club but the officers in their infinite wisdom, over the objection of many/most of the members, will not affiliate with any SS organization. There might be other clubs whose members are in the same boat.

  Also, I would not hesitate to say that the majority of the shooters who will read this thread don't belong to any club at all. That would leave the vast majority of SS shooters no opportunity to partake in your matches. The only way I would have of comparing myself in a match with other ASSRA, ISSA, or WSU shooters would be thru postal matches.

  Personally I like your target and I like your rules, especially the separation of the traditonal and modern(?) shooters.

  Maybe if I can get some targets from you I'll just shoot your Election Day match (on the day specified) by myself just so I can see how I compare with you guys. I can think of a coupla other guys I can probably drag in too. 

PETE

I have been folowing this thread and I have a couple of Ideas. 
Match funding How about the match shooters funding the prize. Set a match fee of the target price plus $25.00 that would go in the pot. it won't take long for the prize to grow and the more money in the pot the more compitition for the prize. This match won't be won at the first try. The match would have to be shot during a club sponsered event on the correct target with witnesses under the rules that Steve sets up.
As to the east-west team match I think this is a great Idea. Both teams could pick a day and shoot the match at their respective clubs. Then share targets and scores over the internet. This is the kind of event that could draw interest to the sport from outside the Schuetzen comunity. Hopefully this would attract new shooters to our sport.
As to Mr. Welch's claim in the Roland record. As I understand the story it was shot without witnesses. Mr. Welch's ethical lapses of the past cast serious doubt on the event. 

40 Rod

40 Rod, I agee that all participants get something, even a small medallion showing they participated. Last weekend I shot in the Arizona State Muzzleloading Championships. Each competitor, and there was over 60, received just for showing up 1lb of black powder. (50 lbs was donated)Then based on the scores each competitor chose from a table of merchandise. They stuff was abundant and of good quality. Agg. winners, match winners, received the usual plaques. But it was a well-run fun event and folks enjoyed getting a little something back

Pluton, glad to read your input on this topic.  I think you have a splendid idea about determining the score for the 100 shot Hudson match with iron sights.

A fifty shot version of this match is fired every year at the ISSA matches in Raton.  The high score to date is Earl Hines' 1117.  Take this times two and you have 2234.  Having shot this match several times, I feel breaking 2200 would be quite an accomplishment.  That's averaging 22 points per shot.  That's not extremely high, but you sure couldn't have too many wide shots and still achieve that score.

Hopefully, Dick Norton and Steve Grabe will have something to say about your ideas.

This Hudson Match topic has generated a lot of talk on this web site.  Hopefully, that will lead to a real match in the future.

Coolhd

Waterman,

  You're absolutely right about the fatique factor entering into a 100 shot match. There aren't to many of us that are in good enuf shape to shoot a match that long and not be tired. Especially if you're shooting a 12 lb. rifle. In fact the next day there are usually complaints about how sore everyone is! Having shot in several of those matches tho..... and I'm 65...... what I've found is that your scores for the individual targets goes up and down in a manner that would look like a wave pattern if graphed out. The last score is not necessarily your worst either.

  Your mention of shooting the .22 reminded me of an article in an old Journal. Seems this author was showing how at least several modern day shooters had regularly beaten Hudsons record. What got me shaking my head about that was the fact that they had done it with .22 rifles and shot those scores at 100 yds. Where's the fatique factor and the increase in shooting error with distance? As far as I could see the whole article was worthless....... and yet it was repeated a coupla years later as tho this was important news!

  You're also right about the rifle Hudson used to make his record. It was a .32/40 Ballard. From the picture of it, it appears to be a Union Hill #8 with a Schuetzen buttplate and DST. About the only difference between it and most Schuetzen rifles of the era was that, altho not a rare feature, Hudson attached a cork pad on the forend just in front of the frame, rather than using a palm rest. A 10 pd. wgt. limit and 3 pd. trigger pull would be the requirement of the NRA matches of that era, and were meant to simulate the military rifles of the era. In Schuetzen shooting of the period if you could hold it up in the offhand position you could shoot it. Altho the average was about 12 pds., some used guns weighing up around 16 pds. and more Set triggers were the norm, and as long as they were safe there was no problem.

  Hudson used a duplex load for his record, so as far as I can recall I haven't read whether he cleaned his rifle between shots or not. One fact that might have said he didn't was that he used the muzzleloading method which reduced the need for cleaning. But, since BP was still being used by many shooters they were allowed to wipe the bores out between shots. In fact many shooters were very religious about it being very careful to wipe exactly the same for every shot.

  Clothing rules..... This is gonna get ticklish in the future. It will depend on whether you're shooting under ASSRA, or WSU rules. The ASSRA is more liberal in letting you use a shooting coat, while the WSU forbids it, if I read their rules right. Shoes? I don't recall whether anybody has a rule about those. And. No you don't have to wear a neck tie if you don't want to, altho some will, and also wear a shooters apron and bowler hat. In fact I'm kinda looking for the latter now! 

  .22 Hudson match?...... Again ASSRA and WSU might look at this cal. differently. The ASSRA does have such a match, but not sure about the WSU. Our club doesn't shoot a 100 shot .22 match but we do have several different 10 shot matches (bench & offhand) and they are shot at 100 yds. using the 100 yd. German ring target. You can use the 100 yd. Small Bore Rifle target if you'd like but it's quite a bit larger. If you use it then make up an overlay with a 3/4" 25 ring and add an additional 3/8" to the radius of each suceeding ring to get an idea of how you'd do in an actual match. If you end up with a score over 200 per ten shots you're doing doing better than most. Let us know how you came out.

PETE

Dick,

  I couldn't agree more. I work out four days a week. Two days on the wgt.'s for upper body strength and endurance, and four days on aerobics for endurance. As a result tho my shooting suffered terribly during our Winter indoor shooting, but I'm trying to look at the long term benefits this Summer as I get to the point where what I'm doing doesn't wear me out completely for the day.

  As you mention, it would be nice if someone who knows what specific exercises would benefit us as shooters would post something. Mostly what I'm doing is to strengthen up a pair of legs that got bunged up pretty badly a year ago. Those are pretty well under control now so switching over to something that would be more specific to our sport would be nice to know. Your points on what Chuck Blender does are good and will be good to look at. Never thought of the deep knee bends while holding your rifle up (one of my weak points), but I have read that the knees are one of the first things to go in your muscle and bone structure so anything to keep them in shape would certainly be a help.

  I have to laugh when you mention people can improve their physical conditioning up to a very advanced age. So true! As I mentioned before I'm 65. When I started on my wgt. schedule I admittedly started out light at about 3000 pds. per 7 station workout. But I've worked that up to 8100 pds. now and am scheduling another 200 pds. for the first of the week. My goal is to get up to 10,000 pds. and then keep it there.

  The best thing, of course, would be to shoot a coupla hours a day, but not many have the time or can afford the expense so doing some wgt. and aerobic training is the next best thing in my opinion.

Now if I can just knock off the 20 pds. the doc thinks I ought to. 

PETE

Dick, you are correct about the conditioning routine.  I have found it best to halt my exercise program 3 or 4 days before a match.  Then I'm usually at full strength come match day.  Olympic training manuals recommend the same type of schedule.

Although we stand still--or try to--in offhand shooting, the physical toll of picking up the rifle at least 100 times and putting it down an equal number is fatiguing.  Think about it.  If the rifle weighs 16lbs as mine does, then you have lifted a minimum of 1600 lbs for a 100 shot match.  So we need all the energy we can muster during the competition.

Good luck at Phoenix!  Wish I could be there.

Coolhd