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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cast Bullets (Read 20461 times)
leadball
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Cast Bullets
Mar 23rd, 2005 at 10:27am
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Having had discussions with Charlie Dell on cast bullet composition the question is  always posed "does the composition of the cast bullet make any difference as long as the alloy is within a certain hardness range. Let me try to explain my question --suppose you are the rifle barrel, you know if the bullet was hard or soft but do you care what alloys were used to arrive at that hardness or softness.
        To any and all who care to respond--thanks in advance
      leadball
  
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Asst
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #1 - Mar 23rd, 2005 at 11:41am
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I have always wondered that LB,  if shooting Smokless or BP if the bullet was a .001 or so over groove dia why would it matter.

If the alloy is good enough to fill the mould with crisp edges,when casting,  I don't think it would/will matter.

Now if you were shooting BP and wanted a smaller dia bullet to upset into the groves that might make a difference on how hard it was, but not what made it hard, I reckon.



  
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PETE
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #2 - Mar 23rd, 2005 at 2:27pm
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Leadball,

  Yes!  I think it does.

  Altho Lead/Tin alloys don't harden much over a period of time, those that contain Antimony will. I've never been able to prove that this natural hardening affects accuracy. But there are those who think it does and they will let their bullet "age" for two weeks to a month before using in order to normalize the hardness.

  The old timers felt that if you changed your Lead/Tin alloy by as little as 1 point..... i.e...... 1-20, 1-21, 1-22, etc. That it would affect accuracy.

  My own personal experience isn't quite that refined but I did find that when working with my .28/30 that going from 1-30 to 1-32 did make a noticeable difference in group size. About a 1/3rd less!

  I'd like to do some testing some day to see if this applies just to the small calibers, or applies to the larger ones as well. Usually when working up loads for the .40 & larger calibers I've just gone with 1-20, 1-25, or 1-30 and always got what I thought was good accuracy when one of those alloys was used. Using one of these three you will definitely notice the difference between them.

  To get into your question a little deeper. Instead of the barrel needing a certain alloy I tend to believe that the powder charge determines what hardness you need. If the powder charge is greater than the bullet designs ability to resist deformation of the nose; then the nose will slump. This slump will not be even around the bullet and will throw it off ever so slightly when it leaves the muzzle. This in turn will cause a slight oscillation, which will never damp down, and that will affect accuracy at the target. What you want is an alloy that's hard enuf so that it won't deform past the point where the ogive begins yet is still soft enuf to expand into any irregularities in the bore, and for the job you want it to do.

  To point this up a bit, the Sharps Rifle Co. made their PP bullets using a 1-16 Lead/Tin alloy. Seems rather a strange number to use but more than likely that's what they found worked the best in their guns.

PETE
  
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stevens52
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #3 - Mar 23rd, 2005 at 6:30pm
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Paul,   Yes it matters. IMHO here's why;   I shoot a lot of what I'll call "mixed lead". I've used a number of different lubes and had varying success with them. There are several of Charlie's that I'm settled in on that provide no leading at all. None. I can shoot as many shots as I like, NO leading. BUT with mixed lead I have to be careful. I have a large supply of clean wheelweight metal that I'm determined not to waste. At a 50/50 mix with Pure lead/WW's I have an acceptable hardness but I get leading irregardless of what lube I use. At 60/40 lead/WW I get no leading with the chosen lubes. I've experimented with the mix and 60/40 is the balance point for the desired hardness and no leading. Something in the WW's melts at a lower temperature and causes trouble. The addition of extra lead eliminates that. Don't know what it is, don't really care. The rifle shoots outstandingly well with the proper mix. The upshot is that I've probably got 1500 lbs of the clean WW ingots. The amount of pure lead I have to buy is minimized greatly. I don't buy tin, it's expensive and I don't need it. The ww's help the mix to cast very well and the weight of the bullets is within a couple grains of what the normal lead tin weight would be for a mold. So......For me it matters. Not in the accuracy department but with regards to leading. I get equal accuracy and I don't buy tin .  John B
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #4 - Mar 24th, 2005 at 8:02am
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Leadball 

I think that the compisition of the alloy is important to how well the bullet shoots. There is more that just hardness to consider. The ductility is an important factor also. Lead-tim alloys combine hardness with excelent ductility. The addition of antimony dramaticaly cuts down ductility. Where the break point is I don.t know, Stevens 52 60% wheel weights 40% lead could be the point. Personally I have always followed the advice to shoot as soft as I could and work up for accuracy. My experience is that you will get leading faster with a too hard alloy than a too soft one.

40 Rod
  
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stevens52
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #5 - Mar 24th, 2005 at 8:03pm
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I guess I'm less sure of that. Angus shot extremely well when he shot with us, won a lot of bench matches and was a force to be dealt with in that regard. He shot literally tens of thousands of rounds in practice. For two seasons he shot linotype only and said he couldn't tell any difference in accuracy. Hard to seat but accurate. For myself, the 50/50 bullets shot well, perhaps not as well as softer and I realize that could be different in another rifle. Wheelweights themselves shoot well and are quite ductile.
  
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leadball
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #6 - Mar 24th, 2005 at 8:55pm
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I agree when using WW only I get a slight amount of barrel leading, but when I get close to the 25/1  lead tin mix using WW and lead and a slight amount of tin of about 60/40  70/30--I cannot find any real accuracy differences and no leading.
         We can tell what our alloy is by casting a few bullets with our favorite mould, if the base of the bullet tears away it is WW--with a lead tin mix it is near impossible to make this happen.
          The bottom line is--I have a good supply of WW that I feel I must use because if it is mixed properly I can't tell any difference in accuracy.  I keep trying to prove myself wrong but so far I have not.   leadball
  
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stevens52
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #7 - Mar 24th, 2005 at 10:05pm
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I don't think you will........I've tried for 15 years.  If you'll hit your sprue with a wet sponge you'll find the tearing to be much minimized and weight distribution to be extremely good.
  
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Dale53
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #8 - Mar 24th, 2005 at 10:41pm
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Paul;
I didn't understand your post regarding your preferred alloy using w/w's. Please clarify - percentage of w/w, lead, and tin.

Thank you.

FWIW, I am currently using pure lead and pure tin, 25/1 in my .32 Dell (.32/.357 or .32 Miller Short) with excellent results.

Dale53
  
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leadball
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #9 - Mar 24th, 2005 at 11:42pm
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dale;
       Sorry, I did post the formulas wrong--I meant to say with a mixture of about 60 % WW  and 40% "pure' lead and a very slight amount of tin [about 1/2 pound per 20 pound mix]--I get no barrel leading and I can't see any loss in accuracy as opposed to using 25/1 lead-tin.  I have found that at times I must use more lead, probably due to the ever changing composition of the WW.  I use the weight of the bullet as my guide--I add as much lead as needed to get as close as possible in weight [WW--Lead-Tin] as the 25/1 alloy would be--altho the alloy can never produce as heavy a bullet as the 25/1 alloy.  leadball
  
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stevens52
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #10 - Mar 25th, 2005 at 1:33am
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We're basically doing the same thing. The basic 60/40 WW/lead mix gives a hardness comparable to 25-1 lead -tin. I find bullet weights to be very close also. I'm curious what noticeable difference you've found the addition of the tin to make?
  
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leadball
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #11 - Mar 25th, 2005 at 8:12am
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stevens52;
               Actually I don't think the tin does anything--I should quit wasting it because of the price. I wish someone else would run a test on this WW alloy versus straight lead-tin to see if they might possibly get the same results. It seems to me that there are a lot of variables in shooting lead bullets more important than where or not the bullet has a little WW in its composition.   leadball
  
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stevens52
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #12 - Mar 25th, 2005 at 10:38am
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I'd like to see a chemical analysis of one of the 60/40 bullets. It might fool us how "pure" our slugs really are. They can't be that far from "real" bullets. The low temp metals that would trash a pot like zinc or aluminum obviously aren't there and I do discard an occasional oddball wheelweight. Sure does keep the cost down........... Grin
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #13 - Mar 25th, 2005 at 11:14am
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We might be able to get FITZ the younger to run a molecular test on the bullets/alloy in question.  He mentioned on his last trip to Charlie's that he would be willing to work it in.  How about it, Bob Fitz, if you're seeing this, do you think your son might still be willing to test some alloy for us?

Froggie
  
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Dale53
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Re: Cast Bullets
Reply #14 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 11:44pm
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Leadball;
Thanks for the info. I have been using 25/1 for a long time with excellent results. I have more than a 1000 lbs of W/W so I might have to consider using up some of it. Roll Eyes

Dale
  
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