I started a new thread as the othe iron thread was so long.

I used to shoot some BPCS after shooing that game smallbore and high power with a scope for some time.

I always wondered about the Iron sighting error on the irregular shaped targets. .

Last winter I bought some offical NRA airgun Silouette targets. The animals are reduced to scale, to be shot at 10 meters. In a bank of 10 half are pointed left and the other half right. all 4 animals are on the same target. 4 rows of 10

My Match air rifle is as close to a one hole rifle as I have ever seen. Just to see what would happen I shot it benchrest at 10 meters with the iron sights. All shots at the same 10 meter distance and no changes in sight settings as I changed from Chickens through the animals to Rams

There is a distinct drifting of the groups toward the head of the rams, makes sense I guess, the mass is larger on one side than the other. So if you are shooting 2 banks that are opposed you should adjust windage to compensate. I had to guess since the size of the target is so small but about 1/2 to 1 moa on rams is the best estimate. And that is to either side so your windage setting could be as much as 2moa out when changing banks

Pigs much less so in fact I could tell no difference in windage which ever way the pig faced.

On the Turkeys elevation was the problem. The groups showed much more vertical error than the other targets. The tall indistinct neck and legs must not give a sharp reference point

With the Chickens I could see no difference in group positon and the groups were well centered up. Even if they are small He is a round little critter.

I wonder if the top level BPC shooters allow for the Ram error. The other animals would not make any difference and of course you do re-sight on each bank.

Boats

I have shot .22 silhouette for several years. We shoot year 'round. From April to October we shoot outdoors on steel at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards (differs from the NRA because of our range set up). From October to April we shoot indoors on paper at 50' using standard NRA targets. We shoot every Friday night, year 'round.

We started the program, originally as a sub-gun program for BPCR Silhouette and required iron sights.  Later as most of the shooters got older and were cussed with failing eyesight we allowed scopes. Now, nearly everyone uses scopes.

However, before we went to scopes we learned a good bit about shooting silhouette with iron sights. Shooting iron sights I learned that it is VERY helpful to use a LARGE front aperture. If you make it large enough the mass of the animal is placed in the center automatically by your eye's natural tendency to center the object. The head and feet become MUCH less important. Use as small a rear aperture as it takes to sharpen the sight picture. Using a large front aperture seems conterproductive at first. Persevere and you will shoot better scores.

We shoot the chickens and pigs offhand and the turkeys and rams off sticks. We hold well enough off sticks that when you practice weekly, you can really test your sight effectiveness.

Dale53

Good morning, Board;

     Boats has made a very interesting observation, but as a practical matter for me, I don't care that the front of the ram pulls the center.  We sight in as part of every string so that is automatically compensated.

     His observation points out a real problem, though, when the color of the target or the berm changes.  For instance, there may be a weed or a dark spot on the berm or a target may be dirty on one end.  Then it takes some effort to concentrate enough to ignore the distraction.  These things will definitely change your sight.

     With irons, you are centering on the mass of the target and if the target mass changes, your sight also changes.  Obviously, with a scope, you can see the target detail much better and when that becomes important you see better with a scope.

     That's the way I see it.  Pun intended.

Y'all be good.

horsefly

Shooting iron sights I learned that it is VERY helpful to use a LARGE front aperture. If you make it large enough the mass of the animal is placed in the center automatically by your eye's natural tendency to center the object. The head and feet become MUCH less important. Use as small a rear aperture as it takes to sharpen the sight picture.

Dale,

Thanks for your post. I have found this exact technique to work for me as well.

This last Sunday I was shooting my 40/65 at 834 yards. Our target at that distance is a two-foot by two-foot steel diamond with a white center.

With both eyes you can see this target fairly well. Through the sights you loose definition and the sight-picture becomes quite marginal, especially in flat light. My fix is, as you say, a big front aperture and stop down my rear to sharpen up the little tiny dot of white as much as possible. Then hold hard and squeeze gently.

Good morning,
Forrest

Pete;
We are using a "3rd Generation" of indoor "sticks, presently. They are quite a bit better than our previous ones.

Make the base a piece of 2"x10". Hardwood is better because it is heavier (hardwood CAN be expensive so I used yellow pine which truly has hardwood characteristics {weight}.

Use a piece about 18"-24" in length. If you like "pretty" bevel the edges with a router. Buy a short length of 1"x2" oak about three feet long. Cut it in half. Rout the center part of each with a slot several inches long to fit a 5/16" or 3/8" stove bolt. I use a knob instead of a nut so that it can be incrementally adjusted while in the prone position. Mount the "routed" cross sticks on the base with a short piece of the oak, narrow end down (on each side) and screwed and glued to the base from the bottom. Run a bolt thru the center of each short piece fastened to the base and pivot the "sticks" on them. Your cross sticks will be pivoting on the bottom end and "collected" with the center bolt in the slots. 

Here is a tip. Make the cross sticks first. Then take two short pieces of the same material. Cross drill the short pieces in the middle of the wide side for 5/16" or 3/8" stove bolts. Use of aircraft nuts will allow you to exactly set the tension that you like without pulling the nuts up tight to hold. The plastic inserts in the nuts will tend to hold the nuts tension that you choose without compressing the wood. With the cross sticks fastened to the short strips, then set them down on the wooden base and mark the position. You have to offset the stick bases the width of the sticks. I can't tell you how many overlooked this and ran the short bases in a line causing a bind in the cross sticks.

Install three rubber door stops (the rubber things from your building supply that look like rubber cups - used to stop door handles from crashing into the wall behind when a door is opened carelessly). These are installed in a tripod manner and will be the three legs that the base will sit on. You can put one in the center of the base on one edge and the other two in opposite corners. If you prefer, you can put one on each corner of the short side of the base and one in the middle of the opposing short side. Both placements seem to work just fine.

Some of the fellows finish the stick and base to furniture standards and they are pretty sharp. These indoor sticks are actually better rests than using NRA sticks out doors.

If you need any clarification, please ask.

Dale53

Dale,

  Excellent post on the indoor crosstick setup. I've got a fairly complete wood shop so should be able to scare up the necessary hardwood. Think I hear a nice piece of Cherry calling me right now. 

  Joe,

  Sounds like me and you came up about the same way when it comes to sights. I can still remember the guys telling me how much better I'd shoot if I'd switch over to apperture front sights. Too a long time to convince me to change, but haven't used anything else on a rifle since.

  Never did get partial to a bead sight!

  Like you and Dales suggestion to go to a bigger apperture for shooting Shilouettes. I probably use a bigger one than most for bullseye shooting but can definitely see that I could go bigger for the Shilouettes.

PETE

Boats,

  Quote:


  Well, I'm not to sure about this. All I've used for Schuetzen shooting, as far as irons go, are the Hadley eyepiece. It works ok in most instances, but, I've found when you go to a smaller opening the edges of the bull become fuzzy, or that sharp "crispness" the bull has when things are set right, will start to fade.

  I'm thinking possibly that as you stop down the rear sight you would have to go to a larger front. What do you think?

PETE

Boats,

  Basically I never change the front apperture once I find one that gives me the amount of white I want. The only time I'll change is if I get to feeling that it needs changing.

  So..... I just change the rear opening till the bull jumps out nice and black and the front sight is sharp. But I have noticed that if you stop it up or down to far either the front sight fuzzes or the bull tends to lighten up in color, becoming a more gray than black. That's why I was wondering if changing the size of the front apperture would possibly keep the bull nice and sharp looking thru a wider range, and keep the front sight sharp.

  I certainly don't want to go to a bigger front apperture and then find when I adjust the rear to get the front sight sharp, that the bull starts fading, or vice versa.

  I guess all a guy can do is some experimenting. I've never played around with trying to change front appertures, but our conversation here seems to indicate it might be something that needs doing if we want to improve our scores.

  One of the advantages of apperture sights is that when set properly you don't have to be constantly trying to focus between fornt sight and bull.

PETE

While we are on the aperture sight discussion:

When shooting bullseyes, most tend to use as small a front sight aperture as they can and still see a ring of white around the bull. This is a serious mistake. It will work for a couple of shots, but almost immediately the eye will fatigue and then the ability to center the bull in the front sight goes away. The rule of thumb for front sight aperture size in relation to the bull requires you to use a front sight aperture that appears to be twice the size of the bull for most optical efficiency. You can easily determine this. On the bench, have the left side of the bull "touch" the left side of the aperture. Fire five shots using this "off centered" method. If the aperture is the correct size (twice the size of the bull) the shot group will be centered right on the right edge of the bull. Of course, when you are competing, you will aim normally with the bull centered in the front aperture.

Now, that is the plan for shooting off the bench or prone, kneeling or sitting  (for position shooting).

However, for offhand, as the Olympic Coach suggested and my experiments showed to be VERY useful, you use a front aperture that is big enough that "you can keep the bull or silhouette inside the front aperture most of the time". Let the readers understand that this will be a BIG aperture. It really does work and I recommend it to all. Even tho' it is VERY large, your eye will naturally center it. While it is not quite as accurate as the "twice the size" rule, your total offhand score WILL be higher with the LARGE aperture offhand. When shooting silhouettes, this large size will be better at ALL positions. What is does with silhouettes is that your eye will "ignore" the appendages (feet, legs, and head) and center the mass. This will present a far more reliable image for you to center.

"That's my story and I am sticking with it"!

Dale53

Dale & Joe,

  I guess I'm using a WAY to small apperture then. I use the same for offhand and bench and that size for me will give me a 23 if any side of the apperture is touching the bull. Will have to give this idea a try in a little while when I do some offhand with the air rifle.

PETE

Ok here are my two cents.  Im late getting in on this one.

I use a fine cross hair front.  Like in a scope.  It give me great reference vertically and I can use the vert  as a  refeerence for left and right aming points.  ie holding on a shoulder ect.  It really works for me.

Jon