For the last several years I've been using some home made flags which for the most part have worked fairly well. Plus I've made up a wind probe, which Dale53 is familiar.

  But GWarden and I have been discussing getting some boughten ones. Next Saturday we'll be going to visit a guy who makes them and looking over what he has. Here's his web site.

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  Since neither of us know all that much about "store bought" flags, I'd like some opinions on them, and maybe some web sites for flags that you've found to be satisfactory.

PETE

Cat,

  Know what you mean about the flags going every which direction. Happens all the time on our 200 yd. range, and I hear it's about the same at EG.

  What both GWarden and I have been using is probably very similar to what you remember. Two pieces of surveyors tape attached to a crude swivel.

  The swivel we have, I think, is part of the problem. I personally don't think it's quite sensitive enuf to wind direction as those on the web site mentioned above. Tape works great tho.

  Plus the staffs aren't quite high enuf to get into the air currents the bullets will be passing thru. Many times I've seen flags set at the same distance, but different heights, blowing in different directions.

  Thus the asking for input on what others have found to be good, and maybe something we should be looking for so we don't go throwing good money out the window. Considering the price per flag and stand of the above you don't want to be buying several of them and then find out they're not good enuf, or there's something better for the same money.

PETE

Keith,

  Now that was funny. Between the time I read your message and went to reply the site went dead on me.

  Anyway. Great post! Just what I was looking for. Wouldn't mind making my own flags either, being the stingy sort to.

  But was at a loss as to where to get that corrugated plastic that looks like cardboard. Anybody got any idea besides a plastic company or sign shop. Not sure if we have either around here. Maybe something like a hobby shop, or an art supply store. Probably be pretty expensive from those places to but about all I can think of that might have the stuff.

  OK on the two vane type. A .22 bench match I went to this past Fall had both double and single vanes in about equal numbers, but very few of the daisy wheels. Like the idea of the double vanes not oscillating past the wind. I didn't notice this at the .22 match as the wind was pretty steady, but have noticed this effect at our matches where the wind is constantly changing directions. Sometimes just as you're breaking a shot.

  Yes, I have a lathe so making the adjustable slides on the shafts would be no problem. Was thinking of maybe making the vane supports and pointer shafts out of arrow blanks. What do you think?

  What did you use as pivot points? Some kind of bearings?

  The big problem now would be making adjustable poles. Any ideas on this??

  Yeah! Send me a picture of that Hog Pan Wind Indicator. Sounds intriguing! All sorts of visions are running thru my mind on that one. If it's not to large a file, and you don't mind, I can post it in a following message linked to my web site.

PETE

Cat,

 The guy is going to meet us at the Des Moines Gun Show out at the fairgrounds, and when we're done looking he's gonna take us to his place. Good thing to as I'd have to get out the map so I could find where he lives.

 Thanks for the offer of the ball bearings. I'll certainly take you up on that if we can resolve the adjustable pole thing. I've got one idea, but it's not to elegant, so.......

 I'd like to just throw money at these flags but at $59.00 apiece (probably need at least 4) for a double vane flag and pole, or $61.00 for the same with daisy wheel, I'll want to make them if I can.

 Yard saleing? We call it "junking" up here in M'town.  

PETE

 

Cat,

 Yeah, we've probably exchanged emails on other Lists/Forums. Haven't changed ny signature since the day I started on the web so if you remember that...... it's me!  

  When I saw in your signature "winery", if I got some ball bearings from you I was going to ask you to send me a bottle of wine to. But guess if you rework DC motors, the wine must be a hobby.

 Not to sure what size ball bearing I'll need since I've never tried building anything fancy in the way of flags. Just have to wait and see what comes up.

 For those interested here's the web address of an article on making the wind flag poles that's in the CBA archives, and written by Ed Doonan...... a heck of a nice guy and shot a few CBA matches at his Wind Hill Range near Aledo Ill. Was sorry to hear of his passing.

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 As Ed mentions in his article, these poles are kind of crude but serviceable for the type of flags he made up, which are mentioned to. I happen to have some pieces of PVC of the right size and they might work, altho as I mentioned in my last message..... not very elegant!

PETE

Ed,

  Thanks! Another good idea, altho I think around here anything more than an 8ft. in length on the pole would be more than sufficient. All of the ranges I shoot at are level and about the only hgt. differences would be if we wanted to extend the flags up high enuf to get close to the trajectory. Some games tho, like .22 benchrest will only allow you to extend your flags no higher than the bottom of the target frames.

  Man! Where do you have to use 35 ft.?  I don't think they would need that at the Wind Hill Range where they have one pretty deep ravine running across the range between the 100 and 200 yd. berms.

I like you idea tho, but one question. What do you use to keep these poles from falling over? A ground spike, stand, or....?

PETE

Forrest,

  Well, I was gonna say I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. But guess that's no where near long enuf! 

PETE

Pete -
Got lucky today.  Have 10 bearings, good shape.
1.574 OD 
0.669 ID 
0.472 thk
Send me your mailing address (PM) and they're yours.

Consider something like a tube into which these could be mounted (in the ends) that would affix to the vanes.  That would allow a post from say .750 turned down a bit that could be assembled by dropping the assembly down onto the post.

Thanks,
Tim K

Pete -
No problem.  I've got all of 5 minutes invested thus far.

Hmmm.  Wind flags.  Does the wind blow in Iowa.

Sorry, but that phrase ranks right up there with the sun rising and a bear in the woods.

Pete:

I have a sheet of the plastic corrogated cardbord stuff if you still need some. Any color you want as long as it is white. When you work out the approximate dimensions let me know and I can chop it up into suitable sizes to ship.

Glenn

Pete
We are thinking along the same line of buying one and trying to duplicate. There is the "hobby shop" in Des Moines where we could get the vane material and some really big supply places in DM. We could end up with a day of gun showing and wind flag chasing.
Bob

Pete:

Here be another set of flags what you can look at. I am kinda leaning towards these for myself.

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Glenn

Pete
The corrugated plastic in colors is available on my way to Crow Shooting Supply. Sign maker at Holiday lake has it in colors.
Bob

Bob,

  Cool! Can you get some idea of what the price would be per sheet, and the size of the sheets?

PETE

Forrest,

  One of these days I'd like to shoot while having a spotter!  I'm not sure a spotter would be a lot of help here anyway, since most of the ranges I shoot the winds are so squirrely that it would be an almost impossible job for a spotter.

  Wind flags and indicators, if used, are what the shooters around here use. Like anything else it takes a while to learn how to use them. Those that do are usually the best shooters.

Quote:


  Yep! It is. On most days it will be calm up to 9 AM and when we have a match we try to get the .22 matches shot then, because after that it can get a little "troublesome" shooting the small bores.

  Of course I'm not talking about the straight line winds we have that'll get up to 80 or 90 mph a coupla times a year, or the 148 tornados we had this year. 30 & 40 mph winds are not uncommon, but mostly we'll get winds in the 10 to 15 mph range.

  Wind generators...... I can look out the front door and see one off to the SW. A town West of here (Nevada) has three of them to power the school system. Many farmers have them set up. As for " wind farms".... yes..... up in the NW part of the State there are two I have heard about and one being built.

Quote:


  The big problem here in the East is three fold. One.... The wind rarely blows steadily so you can "chase" it with your sights. Many shooters will line their guns up solid in the bags, and then just look at the flags and pinch the shot off when they think things are right, and do this without looking thru the sights. Two...... Most ranges have to be set up on "waste land" and as such it can be pretty rough. Probably the worst I've seen this way is the Wind Hill Range near Aledo Ill. Third...... The shape of the land, berms, and surrounding trees, etc. break any wind up so any flags you set out can be pointed in any direction, and show half a dozen different speeds. Personally when things get to complicated I'll depend on mirage.

  Well, hope you, and everyone else on here, have a good Thanksgiving!

PETE

Pete,

I'd try a bandsaw on high speed. Or a good 'sharp' knife.

How many flags in 200 yards?   One of the best slug shooters back when I started said divide the range into quarters and put out 3 flags, any more gets confusing. Theory says you will get a good average over the range you are shooting. Works for me. That shooter won many championships and records. Has since retired from slug gun and now shoots shotgun.

Ed

Ed,

  Yeah. I suppose it can get kind of confusing if you have to many flags. Right now I put out three for 200 yds., but would like to try more just to see if more are really needed. Won't know unless I try it.

PETE

Quote:


That makes sense to me; and the transition area.

Here in the mountains of Virginia one has to drive a number of miles to find a range long enough.  A 100 yard range is about it unless one will drive over 50 miles.  Opposite problem when I was in Iowa, where one had to drive a number of miles to find a place with a good back-stop.

I have always felt that it takes at least 4 trips to a range to figure out where the wind flags should go. Gaps in treelines burems ect cause the wind to do strange things. I have seen some ranges that depending on the direction of the wind the flags had to be placed differently to tell you what was going on with the wind.

40 Rod

Cat,

  Boy you do go back a long ways here if you remember Brownells being up town. Only was there once, but have been at the new place out on Hwy. 63 more times than I care to remember. They have expanded the lobby from what it used to be..... but not by much!

  Thought you'd like to here the names of places you were familiar with. 

PETE

Forrest,

  Around here the only steel we hit are the Buffalo Shilouettes at an NCOWS match. They either fall over or don't, so there's no problem with whether you came close. A spotter would be nice so you'd know which way to hold or adjust your sights, but that's not the way the game is played. Other than that we punch holes in paper and with a decent scope you will see all your holes. In any case spotters aren't allowed in any of the matches I've shot in.

PETE

Quote:


Glenn, you will be very pleased with these. I own 5 of these and 5 of the Harris flags advertised on benchrest.com

The plastic material used in their construction is the best. As you know there are several grades of this stuff and the lower quality found at most sign shops does not weather well. These do. Mine are 4 years old, have been set in rain,and snow for 2 to 4 days at matches and have never warped. Indeed, I have a Harris Flag marking the site where I buried my shooting partner (my dog)  at the range 3 years ago and I ocassionally have to borrow it when I've left my flags back home. Wilbur Harris shared a lot of info with Charlie when he first got into making flags. Both flags are fully adjustable for balance and Charlie's double vaned flags have stripes on the inside surfaces so reading angle is easy. Both breakdown for easy packing and are quick to assemble and disassemble - no excuses for not taking them with you to the range!

  I use Wilbur's for certain ranges and Charlies for others. One thing I like about the Harris flags is I can place one at legal height (below bottom of target) and offset the rest by a foot or so to the left and 3 inches  or so lower all the way back to the bench. Set up like this I can usually pick up the furthest 3 in the scope and the 2 closest and most important ones with my left eye. When the front ones indicate a favorable condition, I consult the 3 in the scope for confirmation or adjust for value and touch off the shot.

  The Hood's can be set up like this as well but sometimes I feel the double vanes are too distracting and I spend more time looking when I should be shooting and miss a good condition or fail to observe a fatal change in condition.

  If you can only afford, 3 flags, I'd recommend keeping them simple ones, like the Harris Flags, and learning how they react to varying conditions. I keep one in the backyard where I can see it from the livingroom. I will periodically look out at the flag, glance at the trees and grass and to correlate the effects. I've found this has improved my ability to read real world conditions in the field without flags.

  Another tip, if using surveyors tape as a flag tail, go with the 3 mil thickness tape. Lowe's and Home Depot usually sell the thinner 1 and 2 mil tape. The heavier tape will drop faster to indicate a let up in the wind and will not react as wildly as the thinner stuff when the wind resumes. 

  One of the most accomplished bench rest shooters, Ed Watson, uses an unusual flag design that rarely lies. His flags are not much bigger than a pack of cigaretts, long edge parallel to ground and one short edge pointed, about 1/8 " thick, balsa mounted on pins about 1/32 dia. on top of music stand tripods weighted down on the bottom legs. The legs can be pushed into the ground to level the flag pole (very important to balance the flags so they are not gravity biased and swivel freely). The tails are multi strand , almost pinky thick yarn, knotted every few inches. These tails seem to give a more accurate indication of wind pick ups and let ups than either surveyors tape or grosgrain ribbon. By varying the number of strands , they can be tuned/weighted to the prevailing wind strength.  As many as 6 of these flags can be positioned so all appear in the scope without obscuring the target. 

  The balsa vane itself is more of a visual indicator of direction as the tails actually weigh more and serve as the rudder for the wind to push against. This is just opposite of the vane function of other designs.

  In other designs, the wind has to overcome the mass of the vane plus tail plus metal mounts and structure before the flag moves. I believe subltle but important condition changes have already occurred before the flag can react. Add some turbulence from a daisy wheel and the situation is not improved. Since Ed doesn't sell these flags, they are a homemade, yet simple and inexpensive, proposition! The hard part is finding suitable steel pins and making the mount from stand to pin. --- Tom

Tom,

  I'll second what hst says. Appreciate your first hand accounts. We'll be picking up our flags tomorrow.

  From your descriptions it sounds like our maker and yours have pretty much the same idea as to how flags ought to react and what makes them work the best. He has available the knotted yarn, or you can buy your own, and he likes it almost as well as another type he makes up. This is slightly stiffer/heavier material than surveyors tape and holds it's shape so end doesn't flap around when the breeze is more than a coupla mph. If you would take a cross section of it it would look like a "U".

  One thing I've noticed is that flags can be to sensitive. Probably for calibers like the .22 RF the more senstive the better, but there seems to be some indication that flags can react to quickly. I've heard, but haven't tried the idea out yet, but some will set their flags up with two tails of surveyors tape and will then wgt. one of them down with a bullet. This way you can see the slightest wind pickup and then use the heavier section for holding off.

  What I'm planning on doing is to use the wind indicator part of my Kestrel to make up a set of small drawings showing the different positions of the surveyors tape for the different amounts of wind.

  There are a lot of tables out there that will tell you how nuch you need to hold off for a given wind amount, but so far I haven't seen any that will show me what that wind amount will look like on MY wind flags. So, I'm hoping with that info I can get a little better handle on how much to hold off.

PETE

Glenn,

 Thanks for the info. Sure are a lot of different makers, but basically they are all pretty much the same, with the exception of the one that could be folded up. The outfit down that list a little ways "Fly Fishing Fundamentals" is the guy who''s making ours. He's a local guy so thought it would be nice to go with him. Besides that, he took us on a tour of his shop and explained everything about them and the "why's" of doing it the way he does.

PETE

Scheutzen,

Nice set-up, I have used a windsock for long range, 500 yards set at 300 yards and it worked for me.

Where did you get your stand?

Ed

Ed I bought my stands at ( Orchard Supply ) which is owned by Sears and have the Craftsman Name. They are made for Hologen Lights and were offered separately. I picked mine up for under $17.00 each out the door!