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Marsh
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Alloy question????
Jun 21st, 2004 at 11:32am
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What is ya'lls favorite alloy? 30-1. 25-1 or what do you think of 20-1. I ask because I have a bunch of 20-1. Can I use it to make 32-40 bullets?
Marsh
  
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #1 - Jun 21st, 2004 at 12:14pm
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Marsh
30-1 is what I'm using in the 32/357.

Ed
  
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PETE
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #2 - Jun 21st, 2004 at 1:04pm
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Marsh,
  What I've found over the years, and many others have to, is that 1-25 seems to work well in most calibers considering the MV's we're using in Schuetzen.

  But my .38/55 likes 1-20 best so if I had a lot laying around I'd go ahead and use it.

  There is one other thing you can do. Can't help you here, but some on here can tell you how much Lead to add to a specific amount of 1-20 to get 1-25, or any other alloy that you finally determine works best in your gun. Brent comes to mind as he helped me with this a while back on a bunch of 1-30 I wanted to convert over to 1-25.

PETE
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #3 - Jun 21st, 2004 at 4:32pm
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One of the first pieces of advice that was given to me was to shoot as soft a bullet as possible that didn't lead. I shoot 32:1 as it is an easy formula to calculate for and gives me good accuracy with all my rifles. 
40 Rod
  
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SCHUETZEN
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #4 - Jun 21st, 2004 at 7:07pm
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I have been using 20-1 in my 32-40 with great success! 

I sure would give it a try if I were you!!

  
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mes
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #5 - Jun 21st, 2004 at 7:58pm
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     This is probably heresy but I shoot scrap.  i.e. anything I can get my hands on.  I makeup a large batch of from 200 pounds to 500 pounds of a uniform mixture usually fairly soft.  I have had hard batches that shot just fine by my standards.  I then adjust the load until it shoots and use that load until the batch runs out.   
     Now to qualify that a bit, I really don’t care about bench rest shooting a whole lot, and my best scores in the bench matches are not the top scores but I have managed to win or place in a few of the bench matches.  If it will shoot at least a 245 off the bench it is good enough for me in any offhand match I enter.
mes
  

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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #6 - Jun 21st, 2004 at 8:58pm
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Just for the record, I mix batches of pure lead to pure tin at a ration of 25# lead to 1# tin.  I try to keep ingots of this on hand and just melt these known ingots to start a casting session.  All of this reminds me, though that I am running low and have to mix up some more.  Embarrassed

GF
  
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Marsh
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #7 - Jun 21st, 2004 at 10:38pm
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Well thanks everyone. I'm glad I asked this question. After realizing that there was no consesus, I started casting 20-1 with a Hock mold I had gotten from CPA last year. I hadn't used it before and I couldn't get my bases to fill out all the way around. I threw at least 25 bullets back in the pot and gave up. I called Paul at CPA and he simply said send it back and he would replace it with a nose pour. 
Now thats service. Smiley
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #8 - Jun 21st, 2004 at 11:25pm
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Marsh
I also have used a Hoch base pour I got from CPA and a nose pour as well. I hope that you didn't give up after trying only 25 bullets if it was a new mold? I remember it took a while before both were broke in to cast excellent bullets. I use both 20:1 and 25:1 in my Hoch molds for my CPA 32/40. Both alloy mixes have shot well in my rifle, and I'm still trying to determine which mix is better; as I can't tell any difference when shooting either one in my particular rifle.
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #9 - Jun 21st, 2004 at 11:52pm
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Marsh;
I am using a new nose pour Hoch mould from CPA for my Peregrine. I cleaned it thoroughly with "Gun Scrubber" and then started casting (I use 25/1 lead and tin). The mould has cast less than a 1000 bullets. It works extremely well. Takes very little casting to get to temperature. I cast at about 800 degrees and use a bottom pour pot (yeah, I'm one of those bottom pour guys Wink. Once things are going well, I seldom get a "throw back".

I do use "Rapine's" Mould treatment. I really like that stuff.

Because of a bad back, I only cast about 200 at a session. That seems to work well for me. In fact, I'll be casting in the A.M. again. That'll make the third day in a row. The weather has been rather cool and I am taking advantage of it.

Dale53

  
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40_Rod
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #10 - Jun 22nd, 2004 at 8:17am
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Marsh
Try raising the temp to above 800. I cast at 875, at that temp I cast about 10 to get the mould up to temp. them I can cast till my back starts to scream. Nose pour moulds need a hotter alloy than base pour.
40 Rod
  
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Marsh
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #11 - Jun 30th, 2004 at 10:55pm
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You know what I think guys? I think the alloy percentage is not that important. 20-1, 30-1, wheelweights. They all can be made to shoot good. The addition of tin in in the mix is mainly for ease of casting.
I have shot a bunch of 45-70 with BP and traditionally use 20-1, but one of the best groups I ever shot with that caliber was with wheel weights.
With rifles shooting BP at the velocities of a 540 gr bullet in a 45-70 I don't think you can get the bullet too sofe. The tin in the alloy just makes it cast better. Of cource I realize that some of our schuetzen rifles shoot faster and may more prone to leading, but they don't need to be all that hard if we have proper fitting bullets that give good gas seal.
With Dales help with a formula I have my alloy at about 27-1. 
Hopefully it will shoot.
Thanks for the input. How long do I have to go with that "Newbie" handle? Undecided
Marsh
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #12 - Jul 1st, 2004 at 8:30am
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Marsh
I agree with you that there is a broad range of "Right" tempers that shoot well in schuetzen. The work is in finding the right combination of Mould, Temper Lube, and powder. that work in your gun. The broader and shallower the lands the harder the bullet temper wants to be. Its pretty subjective as to what is a "good" load. 
How ever on the subject of antimony I remain firm as far as bullets go there is nothing good that happens when it is added to a alloy. The only reason that it is used is that it is a cheap way to harden lead. When you add antimony you loose ductility. The alloy becomes more brittle and crumbly. At extream hardness small pieces tear off. Also in casting it goes through a slushey stage that increases voids as the metal cools. 
Try an experiment take a bullet cast in linotype and a lead:tin bullet of the same size. Crush them in a vise take them out and examin them with a magnifying glass or loop. Then tell me which you want to shoot.

40 Rod
  
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PETE
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #13 - Jul 1st, 2004 at 3:19pm
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Marsh,
  I will agree with you up to a certain point on alloy requirements. What I've found is that the larger calibers are not particularly finicky about the alloy used. In the .45/70 I have shot everything from Monotype to pure Lead with reasonable results. (1 1/4" to 1 1/2") This applies to both patched and grease groove bullets.

  But... What I'm finding out since I started shooting the smaller calibers (under .30) is that alloy, among other things, is extemely important. In my .28/30 just going from 1-30 to 1-32 meant going from an alloy that I couldn't get sub MOA with to one that it can be done pretty frequently.

  The smokeless scope shooters will probably laugh at this but I think it's not to bad for irons and BP.  Smiley

PETE
  
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PETE
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Re: Alloy question????
Reply #14 - Jul 1st, 2004 at 3:40pm
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40_Rod,
  I'm not sure I can entirely agree with your summation that Antimony in a bullet is not good.

  Probably a majority of the shooters in the CBA would also disagree. Many of them like to take wheel wgt.'s and thru quenching and annealing like to get their bullets as hard as it is possible to get them. I'd hate think of how many Lino and wheel wgt. bullets I've shot..... with higher velocities and far better accuracy than we can get with plain base bullets.

  Your test of squeezing a Lino bullet in a vice to show how it fractures is true but I don't think it really reflects what happens to such a bullet under internal forces on ignition. The confines of the barrel keep these bullets from "spreading" out such as happens in a vice. I have dug out many a Lino bullet from the bank that was broken in two, but I didn't notice any extra holes in the target, so would assume this happened on impact. Many of these bullets have also been recovered that were bent or distorted, altho they didn't have the mushroom look that Tin/Lead bullets do. In fact many look like they could have used again.

  Personally I've found that the alloy you use will be dependent on caliber and the velocity you plan on shooting it at. Schuetzen calibers and their MV's seem to shoot best with some kind of Tin/Lead alloy. But once you get up into the 1800 fps + range then you need an alloy harder than you can achieve with a Tin/Lead one. The only reason for this is to keep the nose of the bullet from slumping and making for a lop-sided bullet which wouldn't give any accuracy at all.

PETE
  
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